Trying to get America to tank yellow over Hood

froggerjohn

https://mpq.gamependium.com/rosters/froggerjohn/revisions/123

When there's nothing useful in the boosted 4s for PvP, I had been running America/Ghost with AP boosts, but lucky AI cascades can really wreck those matches. Thus I'm thinking about using America/Hood instead, since her passive deals so much damage anyway as long as you can maintain the AP advantage.

Sadly though, my 187 Hood barely tanks yellow over 276 America, and it would sure be much better if America would tank the yellow. I'm wondering if there's any merit to switching BH to America to boost her yellow (currently 180, and needs to be 181). Which also means throwing away any Hood covers for awhile. Short term, it could be a big help in PvP, but obviously throwing away covers feels wrong long-term, and it also delays somewhat the ability to advance my other 4s with BH.

If that's not a good idea, I'm wondering if I should switch my BH to someone else anyway. It's currently on Carol, but at 1/5/5, and I'm already past the black feeder cover, it's likely to take quite a few BH covers to finish her. Was thinking of moving on, and then returning to her whenever I get a lucky black cover from somewhere else. (And then I'd only need one more).

Maybe:
3/3/4 Nico
2/2/3 Peggy
2/3/3 Star-Lord
3/3/1 Valkyrie

Thoughts welcome.

DAZ0273

If you are thinking in terms of PvP then I would go after Peggy. Whilst unfortunately she can suffer against Rocket & Groot teams unless you can hide her, her yellow power and blue stun are great PvP weapons otherwise and you have a nice cover spread.

Dormammu

There are some Supports you could equip to Chavez as quite a few of them boost yellow damage. Check the ones you have to see if any of those might help.

At level 287 my Chavez does 84 damage, just to give you a point of reference, so you should be able to get her where you need to be with some more bonus covers. Remember that in a tie, placement on the character selection screen matters. In the matter of a tie, tanking priority goes: center -> left -> right

Another decent 3-star partner is She-Hulk, as her relatively inexpensive green will keep your foe's AP levels low.

As for your other BH candidates, you really want Peggy. She'll change your game for the better. Valkyrie is another priority as she's like the IM40 of the 4-star tier. Star-Lord and Nico are both very useful, but also very situational.

froggerjohn

I have Element Guns to boost yellow in PvE, so that's covered. It's really just for PvP.

Sounds like I probably need at least 3 more covers, since Hood is around 181.75 on the yellow.

I hear Peggy being mentioned on several occasions, but almost never see her on opponent teams, and looking at her kit I don't immediately understand the attraction. The blue looks useful, but expensive, and while the yellow would certainly slow teams down, if it's taking longer to beat those teams (say compared to America), then that benefit would seem to get lost. Who would she normally be paired with, and could I maybe get a couple of tips about how/why she's effective?

Bottom line, PvP is a strange beast, and I feel just a bit lost after the recent entry into Champed 4* land (and the resulting increase in MMR opponents). Shortly after thinking I had blown PvP completely and would take a break from it, I've had some of my best successes to date, including my first 900+ using Nico/Medusa when Nico was boosted last week. Otherwise though, I wasn't sure where to go, other than America. If I have other alternatives, maybe I don't need to worry so much about optimizing the America/Hood combo. And the other option of course, is going back to America/Ghost, and just accepting that some matches will turn south, and enjoy the really quick wins when they work out.

DAZ0273

froggerjohn said:

I have Element Guns to boost yellow in PvE, so that's covered. It's really just for PvP.

Sounds like I probably need at least 3 more covers, since Hood is around 181.75 on the yellow.

I hear Peggy being mentioned on several occasions, but almost never see her on opponent teams, and looking at her kit I don't immediately understand the attraction. The blue looks useful, but expensive, and while the yellow would certainly slow teams down, if it's taking longer to beat those teams (say compared to America), then that benefit would seem to get lost. Who would she normally be paired with, and could I maybe get a couple of tips about how/why she's effective?

Bottom line, PvP is a strange beast, and I feel just a bit lost after the recent entry into Champed 4* land (and the resulting increase in MMR opponents). Shortly after thinking I had blown PvP completely and would take a break from it, I've had some of my best successes to date, including my first 900+ using Nico/Medusa when Nico was boosted last week. Otherwise though, I wasn't sure where to go, other than America. If I have other alternatives, maybe I don't need to worry so much about optimizing the America/Hood combo. And the other option of course, is going back to America/Ghost, and just accepting that some matches will turn south, and enjoy the really quick wins when they work out.

Pair her with IM40. Get 6 yellow. Decide who you want to destroy - put then front in opposition team, stun other 2 enemies then unleash red on front target (you will often get 2 reds if you have been matching red also). Then have your blue countdowns resolve dealing extra damage. Rinse and repeat. All the while your passive yellow hampers the enemy.

froggerjohn

The Peggy red damage seems really low, unless dealing with very large protect tiles.
The blue is definitely better, albeit with a delay and risk of losing the CD. (Do you get to place it?)

Feeding her with IM40 sounds like the right way to go though, thanks.
Could perhaps also use Vulture, and with two batteries, have major stun potential.

Dormammu

Peggy's blue is quite simply the highest amount of (non-passive) damage of any power/ability in the entire 4-star tier. With an accelerator like IM40 or Vulture, Peggy will put your enemies on their backs quickly. It doesn't matter that her blue damage is on countdowns, because you stun the opposing team and have control of the board. Meanwhile, your opposition is slowed by her yellow - this is super useful while you set up.

The reason you don't see her in PvP anymore is because she came before vaulting and sort of got left behind by the meta of Grocket/Gamora/Medusa. But make no mistake, she is a top five 4-star.

Oh, and when she's boosted.. yikes.

jtsings

froggerjohn said:

The Peggy red damage seems really low, unless dealing with very large protect tiles.
The blue is definitely better, albeit with a delay and risk of losing the CD. (Do you get to place it?)

   I concur with everyone above that Peggy is a PVP all-star.  I use her more than half the time I'm doing climbs in PVP and she can quite easily punch way above her weight and quickly too.  Her ideal build is at 5/3/5 and just to give you some idea of her damage at 270, at that build, she does close to 7k damage and over 5k damage for each countdown tile that goes off.  Many times I choose to target the lowest health character first: concentrate on yellow then try to get a few red or blue matches in the mean time and try to down the character in front to pretty much guarantee that the countdowns will go off.  The reason IM40 works better than Vulture is that he provides red and more blue than Vulture. 

froggerjohn

Thanks all, I set Peggy as the next BH. And for the record, was talking about using *both* IM40 _and_ Vulture, for double batteries and lots of blue. Especially since Vulture is a lot easier to sustain production throughout the match, and not reliant on a good source of yellow, like IM40.

Like most of the MPQ community, I've been waiting on Wasp to leave LL so I can open some tokens. I didn't have any of Loki/Kitty/Cable, so I figured I'd pull until getting at least one cover in all three (for PvE 5e).

I expected that would generate some BH, but in a wild stroke of good luck, I received all three 5* characters within the first 11 pulls. But I'll be ready when they show up.

Daredevil217

I personally do not think Peggy is a Top 5 character anymore. She’s living off her rep much like Hulkbuster and Jean did before her. They stayed ranked higher on many lists than they should have on rep alone. Peggy is good no doubt but she does have drawbacks, mainly the fact that she’s slow. The meta has moved past her into special tiles and passives that don’t rely on AP and so her Yellow loses its luster. Also in an age where speed and acceleration is everything, slowing down the opponent is no longer as pivotal and defense has gone by the wayside while offense is king. 

Her blue power is great. She is a must-play boosted as yes, one recharge can wipe the whole enemy team due to those countdowns scaling to ridiculous levels. But unboosted she just doesn’t do much. So she’s in that Blade/Red Hulk tier but no longer someone who will change your roster like Vulture, Carol, Medusa, Rocket, Chavez, etc. She once was a character that undoubtedly would change your game and bump you into a new tier of greatness once you got her. There were even rumors of her getting nerfed because she was THAT good. She’s still great. I’d say lower top 10. But I don’t believe she’s not seen more because people don’t have her. They just have better options. I have every single 4* champed except Domino and I just don’t think to play Peggy unless boosted (where I will absolutely build around her). Even in Sim where no one is boosted I’m finding I’m using Taskmaster more (even though Peggy is 24 levels higher) for that sweet sweet blue because... Moonsilver Blades!

Dormammu

I rode Peggy/Moon Knight/IM40 (because... Moonsilver Blades!) even into the current SIM 4-star meta, against all those top characters you mention @Daredevil217 and they performed well. Peggy's good at slowing Carol and Vulture in particular, who can otherwise get out of hand too quickly. One cast of Re-charge to end the match is also still a fast and enticing combo.

Yet, you make a strong argument and stated your case very well. But even if she's top 10, there are a LOT of 4-stars and that puts her among the best.

Daredevil217 said:

 But I don’t believe she’s not seen more because people don’t have her. They just have better options.

This is the only thing I'll disagree with. She was never a factor to a whole generation of players who entered the 4-star tier in the Vaulting Era, when Grocket, Medusa, Gamora, Carol, and Vulture all came along. All great characters are eventually abandoned to the newest hotness and Peggy was no exception. However, I believe her value remains far greater than the Hulkbusters, Teen Jeans, and Rhulks you mentioned. She is still effective unboosted while none of those are quite as much; I think Peggy has been less diminished by power creep than those others.

Daredevil217

Dormammu said:

I rode Peggy/Moon Knight/IM40 (because... Moonsilver Blades!) even into the current SIM 4-star meta, against all those top characters you mention @Daredevil217 and they performed well. Peggy's good at slowing Carol and Vulture in particular, who can otherwise get out of hand too quickly. One cast of Re-charge to end the match is also still a fast and enticing combo.

Yet, you make a strong argument and stated your case very well. But even if she's top 10, there are a LOT of 4-stars and that puts her among the best.

Daredevil217 said:

 But I don’t believe she’s not seen more because people don’t have her. They just have better options.

This is the only thing I'll disagree with. She was never a factor to a whole generation of players who entered the 4-star tier in the Vaulting Era, when Grocket, Medusa, Gamora, Carol, and Vulture all came along. All great characters are eventually abandoned to the newest hotness and Peggy was no exception. However, I believe her value remains far greater than the Hulkbusters, Teen Jeans, and Rhulks you mentioned. She is still effective unboosted while none of those are quite as much; I think Peggy has been less diminished by power creep than those others.

The reason she was never a factor is because in about 2-3 regular matches (or heck, a single match with cascades) Grocket has taken Peggy below her health threshold needed to mess with your ability costs.  Once you knock out her yellow, she's really just a decent red and good but expensive blue user up against a Gamora with a decent red and good but cheap blue power.  Since you are prioritizing the same colors and firing them off cheaper, Peggy never gets going.  Also you are bringing a 3* knife (even if its the best knife) to a 4* gun fight.

There was once a time when Peggy's only real counter was Red Hulk and maybe Hulkbuster, because she couldn't mess with their big nuke costs.  Now Chavez can spam crits passively, Carol can buff tiles and deal damage passively, Blade can take chunks of health passively, Medusa can deal damage passively, Dazzler can stun passively, Nico can buff every tile passively, and on down the line.  The meta has surpassed Peggy.  I rank Jean and Buster way lower than Peggy by the way.  I was just saying that before Peggy people ranked them way higher than they should've been based on what the meta used to be rather than looking at what it is.  I wasn't saying they are the same tier.

Finally, while I never see Peggy unboosted I do occasionally see Red Hulk in sim.  That's because he does have a niche use as a Grocket counter.  Peggy really does not counter the current meta team at all (see: above) and while she has a niche (making powers cost more) it is antiquated and easy to get around utilizing passives.  I also see Carnage all the time- and he was once was a bad character (so older players weren't scrambling to get him like Peggy) and he came out prior to Peggy.  But... he actually has a unique niche (spamming tiles) that WORKS with today's meta (buffing tiles).  So I argue as more characters have been released his value has climbed immensely while Peggy has fallen.

TPF Alexis

I chased Peggy pretty hard, even tho I started just before Vaulting did, because I love the character, and everyone was saying she was awesome. I even spent real dollars on a HfH for her. And unfortunately, I've been kind of underwhelmed by her. Because, right about that same time, I was getting Gamora and Grocket champed, and shortly afterward, Chavez, and even when they were about the same level, Peggy just doesn't hold up in that meta.

I'd also note that, even with the whole enemy team stunned, it's still surprisingly easy for some or all of her countdowns to get matched away, either by cascades, or by having no available move that doesn't take one or more out. Even when boosted, I haven't often had the "fire blue, take out the third, basically game over" experience I see people talking about.

froggerjohn

It feels like there's not much that can replace America (for awhile) in my current setup, because she's so fast on offense. I'm trying to think of a scenario where I'd use Peggy (unboosted) over America, and I'm not sure if that exists. Hood's AP steal has a similar 'slowing' effect to Peggy's yellow, but the real difference is that a Peggy team doesn't have any quick source of high damage.

Vulture is a good example, because slowing his black is certainly a big advantage. But he's going to be around quite a few turns against a Peggy-based team, whereas with AP boosts, America/Ghost/Hood can be doing 8K+ damage per turn right from the start, so Vulture is downed within the first few turns anyway before he gets a chance to fire his black. I faced a number of Vulture teams in Domino PvP, and don't think any of them ever got airborne.

Seems like quick kills will always trump slowing the opponents. And even if Peggy's blue eventually does a lot of damage, The America-based team will have been doing high damage that whole time waiting for the multi-stage process of gather yellow, wait for recharge, wait for blue CDs. I think the America match is over before Peggy "catches up" on the damage equation.

Which means I'm waffling again on where to go with my 4BH.

I have three choices in general:
1. Improve my America team (which means BH America, and toss Hood covers).
2. Support someone else I currently have. Medusa and/or Vulture would be my next options, but not sure how best to support them.
3. Try to build around someone new.

I'm trying to think of the teams I currently struggle against, and why.

RBG/Gamora - lots of front-loaded damage, and lots of stun
Rogue - Negates my quick damage; she's just a tank. I can never down her before her green wrecks havoc. I'd need a team that can stun and/or AoE.
Medusa/Carnage - Gets out of hand, maybe dependent on the thirds.

I won't have RBG/Gamora anytime soon, if ever. (Unless they end up in a sale pack, or something).
Rogue is 2/0/3, and not a super candidate either.
My 4/3/5 Carnage stands out as an option, but I've had zero success in the few times I've tried to play him, and can't quite figure out why. (But maybe because his black is only 3).

Valkyrie does look like fun, and unique. Starting to lean back towards her.

Dormammu

Valkyrie is another good choice, @froggerjohn because of her ability to generate AP. She actually works better with 5-stars (because of their match damage) so she remains relevant beyond 4-star land.

froggerjohn said:

I'm trying to think of the teams I currently struggle against, and why.
RBG/Gamora - lots of front-loaded damage, and lots of stun

Use someone that can take advantage of the damage you'll inevitably take, like Rhulk or XFDeadpool (though a decent Carol and strike tile generator is needed to partner them with). Thing is a hard counter who works well, as is Kraven. Don't know if any of those are an option.

Rogue - Negates my quick damage; she's just a tank. I can never down her before her green wrecks havoc. I'd need a team that can stun and/or AoE.

Here is where Iceman comes in. Team him with Vulture.

Medusa/Carnage - Gets out of hand, maybe dependent on the thirds.

Kraven again - he'll neuter Carnage faster than anyone. Your own Medusa is also a good counter. Also, anyone who can get you some strike tiles out will take great advantage of all the free attack tiles Carnage will give you.

Daredevil217

Dormammu said:

Thing is a hard counter who works well, as is Kraven. Don't know if any of those are an option.

Medusa/Carnage - Gets out of hand, maybe dependent on the thirds.

Kraven again - he'll neuter Carnage faster than anyone. Your own Medusa is also a good counter. Also, anyone who can get you some strike tiles out will take great advantage of all the free attack tiles Carnage will give you.

Great suggestions. I’ll just add that Thing and Kraven are great counters. But after countering are sort of deadweight characters which is why you don’t see them often. And of course they are liabilities on defense because they sort of suck when not fulfilling that specific niche. 

I believe Dazzler, as more people get her covered, will be the counter to Grocket. If you take one hit with her she will stun you and wipe most your tiles on turn one. The ONLY problem is the amount of tiles she wipes is dependent on the amount of friendly special tiles on the board. So.... who creates a bunch of friendly specials turn 1? Oh that’s right. So Grocket stays atop the meta lol. 

For the second one, I like Medusa and a stunner (Iceman or Gamora). Their Medusa will not benefit from any matched tiles if she’s stunned. So stun her, kill her, and let their Carnage fuel your team. 

froggerjohn

> RBG/Gamora counters
Thanks for some neat ideas. Never looked at Thing, who's only 1/1/3 right now, and thus sadly won't work. Would have been great, maybe paired with Wasp to weaponize the protect tiles.

I have a 3/3/2 XFDP, but understood about multiplying that with strikes.
RHulk is champable, but I haven't invested the iso yet, waiting for a good use case.
Kraven is 1/2/1, so he doesn't kick in until 5 strikes.

I had also considered 3* Hulk. I know when I find him as an opponent, heavy damage every turn adds up to lots of cascades, crits, and green AP.

Ultimately fighting RBG is still pretty heavy on the health pack usage. I'm probably ok just skipping these teams for now, until getting a deeper roster to where competitive PvP might be an option.

> Rogue counters
Iceman at 2/1/0. A long time before this one is a usable level, even with the Mystique feeder.

I wondered about not focusing on her first, because then her yellow won't be as effective, but that's just inviting even more disaster from her green.

Vulture/Medusa/Strange might be an option. Strange could drain Power Siphon's AP, and Vulture will keep him firing away. About the only failure case, would be Rogue tagging black.

> Medusa/Carnage
Yeah, I use Kraven on the PvE nodes like Venom/Carnage, so that makes sense. 

TPF Alexis

On the comparison between Peggy and Hood as support for America, I'd point out that Peggy can actually be counterproductive here. She does slow down the enemy powers, but the way she does it also means more AP sitting around on their side, making it harder for Chavez to keep doing her thing.

froggerjohn

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about Peggy /with/ America, but rather, as an alternative to America.
Something like Peggy/IM40/Vulture.

DAZ0273

It's a shame you don't have her as I like to use Riri in that team ahead of Peggy. Vulture & IM40 will feed all of her powers, use her Red to smash the back two characters whist you punch the front character into space and then have blue re-fill her red for more smashing (and of course you have the option of using other characters powers too!).

froggerjohn

Yes, she looked interesting, but at 2/1/0, it's another character I may never complete, short of special buy deals.