Let's talk about Niv Mizzet..

Laeuftbeidir

Yes'n. 2 damage to the pw isn't that bad. He still has loop enabler potential, so the 20 mana are okay. But I only picked the wrong target as it looks like

Mburn7

Tremayne said:

Now the gallery is up, Have your fears been put to rest @Laeuftbeidir

I say it looks like they listened.  2 damage per draw is nice, but not nearly nutty enough to be considered broken

[Deleted User]

Mburn7 said:

Tremayne said:

Now the gallery is up, Have your fears been put to rest @Laeuftbeidir

I say it looks like they listened.  2 damage per draw is nice, but not nearly nutty enough to be considered broken

Must be nice cause they never seem to listen to me about cards. 

I started to stop providing feedback about cards because of that

Mburn7

jimpark said:

Mburn7 said:

Tremayne said:

Now the gallery is up, Have your fears been put to rest @Laeuftbeidir

I say it looks like they listened.  2 damage per draw is nice, but not nearly nutty enough to be considered broken

Must be nice cause they never seem to listen to me about cards. 

I started to stop providing feedback about cards because of that

It seems like 95% of the time they completely ignore us (Rikshar's Expertise is a prime example).  But every once in a while they do listen.  One caveat, though, is that it is definitely possible that this was the original design for Niv anyway and our griping was just a coincidence.  Oktagon does seem to have a pretty decent grasp on proper balancing ever since DOM.

Please don't stop giving feedback, though!  The devs are definitely roaming the forums (even if they don't post) and threads that get a good response (like my old DOM Balancing Ideas thread) definitely get noticed.

Laeuftbeidir

Agree with the ones above, by the way. It's very likely the card was already designed that way. But I don't see the thread to be pointless - they likely do read it, and in this case would be reassured that they implemented it in a way that fits to what seems to be the consensus here.. Which is a good thing!

Well.. They mostly are good at balancing, apart from some really outstanding cards, but I really don't like the stacking of effects and conditions making some cards and mechanics really weird. But that's another topic.

nerdstrap

I still see this thread as pointless. People are caught up on cards their skewed viewpoint deems bad design or overpowered while dozens of cards have game crashing bugs... this comment is also pointless, but I like calling out drama

Laeuftbeidir

nerdstrap said:

I still see this thread as pointless. People are caught up on cards their skewed viewpoint deems bad design or overpowered while dozens of cards have game crashing bugs... this comment is also pointless, but I like calling out drama

It's a game. In the end, everything we do here is wasting time!

Guess what? Got him today. 

He's really powerful, but does feel not op

.. I'm going to break him, of course.. But the transition from the paper card is one of the best interpretations from a flavor point of view I've seen so far, without sacrifying flavor or making it ridiculously powerful.

Edit - the combo potential is still gross. I had an easy turn one win with it.. In legacy, of course

Tremayne

@Laeuftbeidir - played against your Kiora deck in TOTP 5 mins ago. A resounding loss to me, but you have made a great deck, that my deck had no counter for. I salute your design. Boring to play against but no sour grapes here. 

I have a few ideas on which cards/combos would handle your deck, to bad I can’t test out my ideas. Sadly I would expect that your deck will win very often due to the speed of your deck and the healing included. Particularly the healing is countering the obvious strategy against Niv-Mizzet.
Combined with the counter cards I thought of are all Mythic or MP, if they are not-standard.

Nice usage of common cards and supports. I guess that Kiora is required because you have 8 spells (and 1 support and 1 Niv-mizzet) ? 

That is why I have to reluctantly have to throw out the call for a nerf on Niv-Mizzet, sadly this will warp the meta once more players get the same ideas as you. Since once your engine fires it will not stop (for many minutes) before the AI takes all life.

TL-DR - Niv-Mizzet must be nerfed or the meta will be skewed.

Laeuftbeidir

Tremayne said:

@Laeuftbeidir - played against your Kiora deck in TOTP 5 mins ago. A resounding loss to me, but you have made a great deck, that my deck had no counter for. I salute your design. Boring to play against but no sour grapes here. 

I have a few ideas on which cards/combos would handle your deck, to bad I can’t test out my ideas. Sadly I would expect that your deck will win very often due to the speed of your deck and the healing included. Particularly the healing is countering the obvious strategy against Niv-Mizzet.
Combined with the counter cards I thought of are all Mythic or MP, if they are not-standard.

Nice usage of common cards and supports. I guess that Kiora is required because you have 8 spells (and 1 support and 1 Niv-mizzet) ? 

That is why I have to reluctantly have to throw out the call for a nerf on Niv-Mizzet, sadly this will warp the meta once more players get the same ideas as you. Since once your engine fires it will not stop (for many minutes) before the AI takes all life.

TL-DR - Niv-Mizzet must be nerfed or the meta will be skewed.

Don't worry, the deck is as boring to play as it likely is to face.This build was explicitly made to break this card as hard as possible, I won't use it regularly.

It usually wins between turn 1 and 3, so it's hard to counter or outrace it.

I used Kiora for the access to enough ramp as well as her spell slots. Something comparable would be possible in green red.. But the spell slots are scarce. I'm still missing an uncommon grn card to bring that deck to the top level.

But that's legacy. In standard, up to this point niv is powerful, but not remotely as mean. But I'll break him soon

Tilwin90

@Laeuftbeidir Let me guess... Niv + tons of ramp (and perhaps Blue Sun Zenith in there somewhere or another form of supplementary card draw, just in case). Reminescent of Part the Waterveil + Prism Array combo, except in this case since you don't rely on supports you can easily explode the board without it blowing in your face. 

Laeuftbeidir

Tilwin90 said:

@Laeuftbeidir Let me guess... Niv + tons of ramp (and perhaps Blue Sun Zenith in there somewhere or another form of supplementary card draw, just in case). Reminescent of Part the Waterveil + Prism Array combo, except in this case since you don't rely on supports you can easily explode the board without it blowing in your face. 

Basically a new twist to the same old brokenness, but with one or two things you didn't mention. Not a lot of brain grease necessary. As long as I am not available to really overkill in standard (well.. I'm close), I wouldn't call for a nerf yet.

Tremayne

Are you unable to break the card because the cards do not exists or because you do not have the necessary cards?

ManiiNames

Playing legacy I ran into a Niv Kiora deck.  Basically had a crapload of gem changers and nothing else.  One support, the Aether something that shoots me for tw9 damage when he casts a spell.  Anyway, this was a horrible experience.  Killed me, very slowly, two points of damage at a time.  After sixty dmg and waaaaaaaaayntoo much time I quit the game.

Mburn7

ManiiNames said:

Playing legacy I ran into a Niv Kiora deck.  Basically had a crapload of gem changers and nothing else.  One support, the Aether something that shoots me for tw9 damage when he casts a spell.  Anyway, this was a horrible experience.  Killed me, very slowly, two points of damage at a time.  After sixty dmg and waaaaaaaaayntoo much time I quit the game.

That's not exactly a new deck.  I've been running the same concept with Rashmi for like a year now (although that kills with Octopi) and others have been doing the same thing with Part the Wateveil and Prism Array (kills with Island tokens).  And don't even get me started on the Omni loop variants.

I don't think Niv-Mizzet is really that much of an issue.  I am definitely sorry for your loss though

ManiiNames

Mburn7 said:

ManiiNames said:

Killed me, very slowly, two points of damage at a time.  After sixty dmg and waaaaaaaaayntoo much time I quit the game.

I don't think Niv-Mizzet is really that much of an issue.  I am definitely sorry for your loss though

My complaint wasn’t that I lost, but rather how freaking long it took with no interactions.  I own Omni and all the other ugly stuff so I know all about loops.  But usually they kill the opponent fairly quickly, rather than doing two damage every 15s or so.  That’s the part that sucked.

Laeuftbeidir

I was wrong about niv.

He is a nice addition, but really not as potent as other combo pieces in the set.

Actually it's not because he wouldn't be powerful.. It's because there are way, way worse izzet colored cards. I now can perfectly ignore anything the opponent could do, just go for my combo and instantly win the moment it goes off

Kinesia

ManiiNames said:

Mburn7 said:

ManiiNames said:

Killed me, very slowly, two points of damage at a time.  After sixty dmg and waaaaaaaaayntoo much time I quit the game.

I don't think Niv-Mizzet is really that much of an issue.  I am definitely sorry for your loss though

My complaint wasn’t that I lost, but rather how freaking long it took with no interactions.  I own Omni and all the other ugly stuff so I know all about loops.  But usually they kill the opponent fairly quickly, rather than doing two damage every 15s or so.  That’s the part that sucked.

Lack of interaction is SO much worse than just losing in my opinion. It's a waste of my time and a deliberate cause of frustation.