Take vengeance/immolating glare

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Gun Bunny
Gun Bunny Posts: 233 Tile Toppler
in MtGPQ Bugs & Technical Issues
Both of the mentioned cards have a restriction preventing the targeting of creatures with vigilance, reach or defender. However, if a creature with one of those abilities is disabled, it is still not targetable.

This is strange, since disabling effects in PQ remove hexproof from creatures, allowing them to be targeted by spells and effects. It also prevents creatures from blocking, which is one of the side effects of tapping a creature in paper. Disabling in PQ also removes activated/trapped gems from the board, many of which are abilities that don't require the creature to be tapped to utilize (Defiant Bloodlord's lifegain trigger comes to mind)

This is actually the opposite of paper magic, in that tapping a creature does not remove hexproof/shroud, but still allows non-tapping activated or triggered abilities to be used.

Paper IG targets attacking creatures (which are generally, but not always, tapped) and TV specifically targets tapped creatures.

TL;DR If disable effects remove every other perceivable ability from a creature, why do defender/reach/vigilance persist and prevent those two cards from targeting?

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  • Gun Bunny
    Gun Bunny Posts: 233 Tile Toppler
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    Anyone else getting this bug?
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
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    Not too sure about this one. Disable cards... disable; they do not remove evergreens (hexproof, vigilance, etc).

    Therefore, disable merely turns off hexproof but the hexproof evergreen (symbol) from the creature never gets removed. 

    Therefore i believe its working normally. 

    Not going to talk about paper magic as this game and that are different with paper being far more complex 
  • Gun Bunny
    Gun Bunny Posts: 233 Tile Toppler
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    Yes, but if you disable a hexproof creature with a non-targeted effect (prism array, suppression bonds, et. al) you can then target the creature with a spell or other effect. Unless disable now means "and can also be targeted by spells and abilities".

    It just seems that disable is effectively turning off some abilities but not others.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
    edited October 2018
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    Gun Bunny said:
    Yes, but if you disable a hexproof creature with a non-targeted effect (prism array, suppression bonds, et. al) you can then target the creature with a spell or other effect. Unless disable now means "and can also be targeted by spells and abilities".

    It just seems that disable is effectively turning off some abilities but not others.
    Oh let me clarify.

    Disable will turn off hexproof. This means it can now be targeted. However, it does NOT erase/remove the hexproof ability (the evergreen symbol). The creature still has hexproof. It is just that the ability is temporarily turned off. 

    This same logic would apply to vigilance. It turns off vigilance but does not erase/remove the ability from the card. This means the creature can no longer block but it still has vigilance. 

    Disable is simply an off switch. Its like turning the TV off. When you hit the "OFF" switch, your TV turns off; but, it doesn't erase your TV from existence 

    Keep in mind the creature is 1. Disabled from blocking (the entire card is turned off but to show a specific 2 tier process) AND 2. the vigilance ability is disabled from taking effect. But never does disable state that it erases/removes abilities. Hence the reason why the evergreen symbols like vigilance, haste, hexproof, transform still stay on the card. (i believe transform actually turns red when disabled. This would be nice if they did that for all disabled evergreens)

    If you wanted to remove the vigilance evergreen symbol, i.e. erase the innate permanent abilities on a card, you would have to use "Deep freeze" but that still gives defender so it still wont work with "take vengeance" and "immolating glare" 
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
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    Unfortunately I think disabled creatures do get their evergreen abilities erased thorough the duration of the disable. It is the reason why disabling creatures with defender/vigilance/reach followed by another creature entering the battlefield sometimes leading to reordering on that player's side.

    As of now, disable pretty much translates into "As long as a creature is disabled, it loses all abilities and cannot attack or be attacked". It's a very clunky implementation and this has been raised in the past - disabling should be part of the state of the creature (kind of like tapping is in paper magic), but it should not remove static abilities.

    Triggered abilities are a different topic sometimes messy when a creature with an ETB triggered ability gets disabled on entering the battlefield.

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