Limited Fetching of creatures

Brigby

I know there is another thread discussing infinite loops, and someone brought up placing a hard limit on the number of cards that could be cast in a turn, before it forces the player to enter Creature Attack phase. What if this could also be applied to Fetch mechanics?

Mburn7

Brigby said:

I know there is another thread discussing infinite loops, and someone brought up placing a hard limit on the number of cards that could be cast in a turn, before it forces the player to enter Creature Attack phase. What if this could also be applied to Fetch mechanics?

That would be perfectly fine.  Although I'm pretty sure the idea in that thread was to put a soft limit (by giving you a confirmation prompt before casting anything after the limit) and just forcing the AI to always stop the loop there.  This would be much better, as it follows the paper MTG rule of "no infinity, just an arbitrarily large number you have to pick right away"

Also, the thread is here for everyone who hasn't seen it yet

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/75385/infinite-loops#latest

rafalele

Mburn7 said:

Brigby said:

I know there is another thread discussing infinite loops, and someone brought up placing a hard limit on the number of cards that could be cast in a turn, before it forces the player to enter Creature Attack phase. What if this could also be applied to Fetch mechanics?

That would be perfectly fine.  Although I'm pretty sure the idea in that thread was to put a soft limit (by giving you a confirmation prompt before casting anything after the limit) and just forcing the AI to always stop the loop there.  This would be much better, as it follows the paper MTG rule of "no infinity, just an arbitrarily large number you have to pick right away"

Also, the thread is here for everyone who hasn't seen it yet

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/75385/infinite-loops#latest

Perfect @Mburn7 that is the idea, an automatic stop (based on a timer or the number if cards) for the IA and a question for the human player asking to stop everytime that the number of casted cards gets to the predefined limit or the predefined timer (reseting the counter after the user answer).

@Brigby as I said before this update in the code fixes not only limits in fetching but also infinite loops and another future undesirable or not wanted loops. Leaving the player to decide when the loop is wanted or not. Would be nice to see this implemented.

Kinesia

Potentially the "infinite deck" functionality should be looked at but maybe that is too much manpower! (It still _really_ doesn't seem to work the way we're told, with exactly 4 copies of each of 10 cards, and if fetch cards are making new decks and grabbing things from there then it should skew the draws towards the cards that _weren't_ fetched but that really doesn't seem to be happening, is there reshuffling and things happening without being announced? There's all kinds of stuff that isn't explained.)

A hard limit to cards in a turn would definitely be an option and much easier. But we need a _proper_ description of what is happening too.

rafalele

@Tombstone, @Brigby do you know if in the next release, 3.0, the developers have done something about this behavior.

Mburn7

rafalele said:

@Tombstone, @Brigby do you know if in the next release, 3.0, the developers have done something about this behavior.

I noticed in Avacyn's Madness the Forerunner of the Coalition seems to be back to normal.  Haven't gotten a chance to check it elsewhere, though (been away)

UPDATE:  Nope, its still working the stupid new way.  I must have just cast it right as my deck cycled over by chance the last time.  False alarm

IM_CARLOS

Menagerie still can fetch Ghaltas. So it's more a card issue. 

Mburn7

IM_CARLOS said:

Menagerie still can fetch Ghaltas. So it's more a card issue. 

Different situation.  All spells and abilities that fetch OTHER creatures are ok.  Its just stuff that can fetch themselves that got the nerf (to stop infinite loops with Path of Discovery and other shenanigans)

Brigby

rafalele said:

Tombstone, Brigby do you know if in the next release, 3.0, the developers have done something about this behavior.

As of this moment, I'm afraid I don't know what the status is on addressing this behavior. If I hear of anything, I'll be sure to update the community.

rafalele

Brigby said:

rafalele said:

Tombstone, Brigby do you know if in the next release, 3.0, the developers have done something about this behavior.

As of this moment, I'm afraid I don't know what the status is on addressing this behavior. If I hear of anything, I'll be sure to update the community.

Thank you.

rafalele

Another card nerfed by this change of behavior, Vivien's Invocation.

I have 3 creatures in my Samut deck, Samut, Ulrich and Ghalta. In the attached image background you can see I had Samut in the battlefield. I had already fetched 3 Samuts with Vivien's Invocation, so the next time I play Vivien's Invocation, I got what you can see in the image, just 2 creatures though Vivien's Invocation still says 3. Can not see why this card has got changed the way it should work. Do you?

Developers have broken fetching cards just to "fix" an infinity loop case instead of provide users a way to control any loop and/or finish it automatically after some conditons by the IA.

@Tombstone, @Brigby, @Oktagon_Daiane please ask developers to revert this change of behavior, no fetching card works as wording says. This is a real mess.

IM_CARLOS

Not every card is nerfed. Uncage menagerie still works like pre-patch. Fetched 10+ ghaltas in one round today. 

fiirst

isnt that Explore too overpower ????? how about reduce amount of gem conversion instead?

rafalele

fiirst said:

isnt that Explore too overpower ????? how about reduce amount of gem conversion instead?

No, pleade, do not nerf a card to solve just a case. User loops should be controled by the user an IA loops just a number of casted cards and then stop.

fiirst

rafalele said:

fiirst said:

isnt that Explore too overpower ????? how about reduce amount of gem conversion instead?

No, pleade, do not nerf a card to solve just a case. User loops should be controled by the user an IA loops just a number of casted cards and then stop.

I think we should nerf the cards/ change ability rather than change the system of the game (change infinite library to 40 cards deck is totally weird and inconsistant).

I also relooked trouble infinite loop cards in PQ history and I found that Season Past was fixed in the acceptable way.

Prefixed Season Past can make the loop easily.
Postfixed, it is difficult to make loop with Season Past alone because the new sequence not let us CAST it immediately after we got another Season Past (Season Past no longer filled mana to returned Season Past).

imo, we just need to stop CAST recursive LC, we dont need to stop FETCH.

So, i think we should try change the sequence of LC and Forerunner, not to fetch another copy immediately when it enter the battlefield but fetch at the beginning of combat phase and/or at end of turn instead should fixed athe trouble we had.

rafalele

fiirst said:

rafalele said:

fiirst said:

isnt that Explore too overpower ????? how about reduce amount of gem conversion instead?

No, pleade, do not nerf a card to solve just a case. User loops should be controled by the user an IA loops just a number of casted cards and then stop.

I think we should nerf the cards/ change ability rather than change the system of the game (change infinite library to 40 cards deck is totally weird and inconsistant).

I also relooked trouble infinite loop cards in PQ history and I found that Season Past was fixed in the acceptable way.

Prefixed Season Past can make the loop easily.
Postfixed, it is difficult to make loop with Season Past alone because the new sequence not let us CAST it immediately after we got another Season Past (Season Past no longer filled mana to returned Season Past).

imo, we just need to stop CAST recursive LC, we dont need to stop FETCH.

So, i think we should try change the sequence of LC and Forerunner, not to fetch another copy immediately when it enter the battlefield but fetch at the beginning of combat phase and/or at end of turn instead should fixed athe trouble we had.

Do not think so, with your idea developers should code every card not to make a loop instead changing the code to control it and to be more user firendly and more like paper Magic.

EvilDead

Unless Fetching card states moved to the battlefield, then make the cards fetched ONLY playable next turn. A hand full of cards with full mana for next turn is still a huge advantage and there can be no loops in this case. 

EvilDead

Forgot to add, this way you could balance cards if desired by allowing them to move some cards to the battlefield same turn but others not. Cannot fetch itself or cards with the same ability, something along those lines then looping becoming not possible.