Decisions, Decisions . . . The 5* Transition

bbiglerbbigler Posts: 1,400 Chairperson of the Boards
edited September 2018 in MPQ General Discussion
After reading discussions on this forum and figuring out my own plans with a new roster, I've come to realize there are several valid options for making the 5* transition, but each option has a different goal and time table. So, I wanted to spell that out here. Unfortunately, there's not a straightforward / standard way to do this, plus it affects your 4* progress. Hence, the dilemma:

Champ Everyone - by constantly opening LTs and spending CP on Classics. This is the simplest option that most players take, but the reality is that it will take years to champion your first 5*. Years, not months. The good thing is that once you get to that point, you'll have a steady stream of 5* champs, which gives you variety. This is also the fastest way to build your 4*s and roster all 5*s for PVE {Edit} but I would only recommend this to players who already have all 5*s rostered and not champed.

Champ the Newest - by constantly opening Latest and ignoring Classics. This is risky as you may not be able to max cover them before they leave the LL pool. Of course, it's possible to cover them later with BH or 4*Champ rewards, but that's slow.  You can obtain at least 1 cover of the Classics this way, but again, it's slow. This is the fastest way to 5*champs though, especially if you start the process with a mini hoard to ensure you champ the first set of 3.  Then after getting those champs, your LL draw rate should increase, allowing you to keep champing the newest. This sacrifices the Classics for faster 5* progress. {Edit} I would only recommend this to newer players who don't have most 5*s rostered.

Champ the Best - by hoarding until a favorable set of 3 is in a special store or in Latest. You can argue that only the top tier 5*s matter and everyone else is a waste, which is why some people do this. It certainly slows down 4* progression, especially for new rosters, but the end result is having the best 5*s and competing with the big boys. The downside is long periods of time with little roster progress.  This method allows you to cherry pick the best 5*s from Classics, but it takes a mountain of patience. {Edit} I would only recommend this to players who already have 5* Champs, so it's not really a good "5* transition" option.

The Hybrid Approach - which is basically a combination of the 3 methods above. You could start by opening Classics to build your 4*s and rostering Classic 5*s, then switch to hoarding until a favorable set is in Latest, then break the hoard and champ the newest going forward. But you may realize you need top tier 5*s to really compete, so you go back to hoarding for a special store or just wait for a new meta defining 5*.

My conclusion is this: how long do you want to play this game? Do you want to be competitive in the 5* tier or just play for fun? Those answers should determine which approach is best for you. It is possible for new players to get 5*champs quickly but they would have to sacrifice the Classic 5*s to do it. I'm hoping that D3 will introduce a better solution to champing Classic 5*s.
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Comments

  • DogfaceDogface Posts: 806 Critical Contributor
    I take the first option. I'm in it for the long run, so every 4* or 5* is welcome. As a player who mainly focuses on PVE i get direct benefit from being able to upgrade my characters and make PVE go a bit faster (even though a better roster will make PVE too harder, but it's marginal imo).
    As i don't play PVP much, i'm not too worried about the meta and the teams i'm going to face there.

    And not unimportant, i'm way too impatient to hoard.
  • Spidurman27Spidurman27 Posts: 184 Tile Toppler
    Champ everyone - basically a falsehood without gigantic spending, especially if you don't have substantial inroads already made.   Now roster everyone is important for PVE essential nodes, which is part of the hybrid approach.

    Champ the newest - I've been working on some math regarding this and it's not a given without help from the cover gods AND feeders.   I'm estimating based on my CP earn (1200 PVP, prog+ SCL9 PVE) that I'll get my 4 cover Loki to 12.84 covers assuming he leaves latest on 12/31 and my unrostered Kitty to 12.66 six weeks later.   There's no BH or 4* help in that model, just CP and LT earn rates at 5%.  

    Champ the Best - wait for a set and guarantee 460+s - sure, but I hate hoarding too.  I like improving my roster, not my token count.

    Secondary hybrid option: Champ most latest.   You'll have to take breaks periodically and hoard for a few weeks and you should be able to champ the majority of 5s coming through latest.   I suspect that if I hoard until Kitty is the newest 5, I'll have a substantial chance of champing her, or the next set for certain. 

    within any option you can always manipulate bonus heroes both 4 and 5* to target a particular latest or classic and that will subtlety improve odds.  And while I could probably write the code for that, I'm not going that deep in the weeds for a F2P mobile game ;)
  • crackninjacrackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    I strongly advise those with younger rosters to focus on latests when they actually want to enter the 5* tier.  However, it's a major mistake to not roster most of the older 5*'s for the pve essential nodes.
  • bbiglerbbigler Posts: 1,400 Chairperson of the Boards
    I strongly advise those with younger rosters to focus on latests when they actually want to enter the 5* tier.  However, it's a major mistake to not roster most of the older 5*'s for the pve essential nodes.
    Exactly, it's a problem.  Perhaps it's best for a new roster to open Classics to get all 5*s, then switch to Latest?
  • barrokbarrok Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
    can't we just play scl 6 or 7 if we don't have the classic 5's rostered? I am not sure it's worth pulling classics for essentials, but I don't know the math. It just seems they have a way to get around that already,,,,
  • HilkHilk Posts: 117 Tile Toppler
    Use Classic while in 4* to level them up and get the classics.... hoard and switch to Latest once you have the 4* (and some strong classic 5* with all the colors).
  • crackninjacrackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    barrok said:
    can't we just play scl 6 or 7 if we don't have the classic 5's rostered? I am not sure it's worth pulling classics for essentials, but I don't know the math. It just seems they have a way to get around that already,,,,
    You can, but doing this sacrifices lots of cp's.  It's okay to not have them all, but you want to have most of them.  This is another way feeders really help now.
  • tiomonotiomono Posts: 1,599 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah this situation needs some help. They are making great progress towards helping with the feeders.

    Personally I hate hoarding and I hate vaulting. Latest legends progress is easier if you hoard unless you are hitting a certain cp threshold with your rewards. If you earn a certain amount of cp from rewards you will catch up on 5*s regardless.

    For me vaulting kills latests. If I do not have any chance to pull about 90% of the characters in a tier I will choose a different option if I have one.

    It's a tough choice with how the game works right now. The answer seems to be different for every player with no truly right or wrong answer. 

    But the devs have been making the transition easier through hfh and feeders.
  • wymtimewymtime Posts: 3,573 Chairperson of the Boards
    The one item you are not necessarily discussing is how much CP and LT are you generating per week, or per every 6 weeks for the new 5*.  If you can save 300 pulls from latest you can get 3 5* championed and one will be at 550 for a week or 2.  You really want to make sure 2 of the latest are really good.

    now are you willing to put in the time and work to hit 1200 in PVP and CL9 PVP to top 10 or be in a top 10 PVE alliance.  If you are you can generate 130+ pulls from latest every 6 weeks.  This will let you latest 5* while they are still in latest.  I personally pull every 6 weeks and have been blue to champ all 5* since Starlord went into packs.  To me latest is the best way to champion 5* as classics are just too diluted to pull.  You can bonus hero 5* feeders and 5* you want.
  • DFiPLDFiPL Posts: 2,405 Chairperson of the Boards
    The thing is, if you're a progression player in PVE and play to at least 16 wins in every PVP, once you're willing to commit to Latest Legends, you will be able to cover most, if not all, 5* going forward.

    There'll be exceptions. One character who drops 12 covers but aggravatingly never drops a 13th. Or a character who drops 15 covers, but RNG means that your coverage is slanted heavily towards one of the three colors (cover saves mean that particular case is salvageable, but I list it anyway). Or maybe you'll actively choose not to complete a character for one reason or another.

    But if you're progression + 16 wins, committing to Latest will enable you to cover most releases going forward from that point. The question then becomes WHEN to commit to Latest, because champion rewards will affect your CP flow, as well. For me, that point was when I had the 4* tier about half championed and there was a 5* I really, really wanted.

    If you don't have the 3* tier fully championed and at least a good start in the 4* tier, you're probably not ready to commit to Latest.

    Likewise, if you're willing to hoard, you can cover whoever's in Latest when you bust it, and if you remain committed to Latest past that point, see everything I wrote above. The only 5* I haven't fully covered since I committed for Spider-Man (Peter Parker) have been Gambit (11 covers, then dried up with something like 2-4 weeks left in Latest and rotated out at 12) and Archangel (stopped pulling when he hit 4/2/4 because I didn't intend to champion him and that was nicely set up for a feeder with no waste).

    Even Wasp I'm 4/5/2, and expect to fully cover before she rotates.

    Classics are great for backfilling your 5* for essential purposes and building your 4* roster, but they really aren't a viable path to championing a character unless you're really fortunate with bonus pulls and/or spend a fair bit.
  • QuebbsterQuebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Classic fivestar characters will be required in PvE once or twice a year only (at least with the current model). You don't really need a lot of covers for them to unlock their essential nodes. If you want to be competitive in PvE it may be better to keep opening Latest and cover the new guys as they come as having the essential fivestar character at a high level can make a lot of difference, even if it's just match damage.
  • smkspysmkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    DFiPL said:
    The thing is, if you're a progression player in PVE and play to at least 16 wins in every PVP, once you're willing to commit to Latest Legends, you will be able to cover most, if not all, 5* going forward.

    There'll be exceptions. One character who drops 12 covers but aggravatingly never drops a 13th. Or a character who drops 15 covers, but RNG means that your coverage is slanted heavily towards one of the three colors (cover saves mean that particular case is salvageable, but I list it anyway). Or maybe you'll actively choose not to complete a character for one reason or another.

    But if you're progression + 16 wins, committing to Latest will enable you to cover most releases going forward from that point. The question then becomes WHEN to commit to Latest, because champion rewards will affect your CP flow, as well. For me, that point was when I had the 4* tier about half championed and there was a 5* I really, really wanted.

    If you don't have the 3* tier fully championed and at least a good start in the 4* tier, you're probably not ready to commit to Latest.

    Likewise, if you're willing to hoard, you can cover whoever's in Latest when you bust it, and if you remain committed to Latest past that point, see everything I wrote above. The only 5* I haven't fully covered since I committed for Spider-Man (Peter Parker) have been Gambit (11 covers, then dried up with something like 2-4 weeks left in Latest and rotated out at 12) and Archangel (stopped pulling when he hit 4/2/4 because I didn't intend to champion him and that was nicely set up for a feeder with no waste).

    Even Wasp I'm 4/5/2, and expect to fully cover before she rotates.

    Classics are great for backfilling your 5* for essential purposes and building your 4* roster, but they really aren't a viable path to championing a character unless you're really fortunate with bonus pulls and/or spend a fair bit.
    This was essentially my strategy. Exception being that I used CP exclusively for classics up til I only the latest four new 4 star releases unchamp. 

    Should be noted that this occurred over 4 years rather being just a year or two into the game.

    Nevertheless, Once moved to LL I covered every with either 12 to champ plus extra covers.

    This real is the scrounger technic though, where you're fighting for every little bit of CP and champ reward to push your further into the five star tier: SCL 9 when ready, 575-900 every pvp, strategic BHing of 3/4 characters and developing a fully functional 2/3 farm.

    For my own sanity, I currently draw the line at 900-1000 in pvp. I'm managing not hitting 1200 and that's fine for me at the moment.
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 5,327 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm probably just going to keep pulling CP in classics as i get it and latest in latest as I get them. I play pve to progression and pvp to 900 usually, so i'm not pulling down the daily shots at latest i need to cover the 5s. I'm also not interested in hoarding. I got my 10th cover for Gho5t Rider this morning out of classic, he is the one 5* I went after spending exclusively in Latest and I only managed to get him to 9 covers before he left to classic (now 5/3/2 - not the most feeder friendly build). Somehow i also managed to get Lumbercap to 9 covers without throwing any CP into latest (1/4/4 -a slightly more feeder friendly build I suppose) , just the tokens i was getting from champ rewards and crashes at the time, so #RNG i guess.

    It's hard not to get excited at the prospect of finally covering my first 5*, but the way I play I am certain he'll be my only one for a good long time if I choose to champ him, and I don't relish what that is going to do to my MMR. I find myself doing impulsive things with my roster occasionally though, so I can see myself throwing the iso at him one day on a whim lol
  • StraycatStraycat Posts: 962 Critical Contributor
    Option 1 should be called "Not that interested in the 5* tier"
    Option 2 should be "Starting to get interested in the 5* tier"
    Option 3 should be "K I'm serious now"

    1 It is primarily used to build the 4*s, tho it should transition itself to covering the latest 5*s when you get like >75% of the 4* tier champed. 2 is not that different, its just accepting less pulls. Its not that hoarding is the only way, but its the only way to tilt the odds a little.

    Personally I did 1 until I got a 5 mostly covered early in their release window, then I switched to 2 so I could make sure I got them champed. Been switching between 1 and 2 since then and now have 8 champs
  • Blindman13Blindman13 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
    I fail to understand why so many people want to insist you can't move to 5* by pulling classics.

    The only time I have not pulled LL tokens was when I was at risk for getting a cover I couldn't use. With saved covers I don't have that worry anymore. Almost all of my CP goes to Classics or the New Release tokens until a get a single of the new 5*.
    Doing this I have all the 4*s champed (except the most recent 2), and four 5*s champed (GR, Dr. Strange, Thanos, & Gambit) with 2 more at 13 covers just waiting on ISO (BB & OML). BP is my BH because he has 12 covers.  I know my 5* champs are not the current meta, but I don't care.  I'm progressing slowly through the tier and I am able to enjoy all the characters along the way
    My Okoye has 9 covers, Wasp has 6 and Loki has 4.  I probably won't be able to champ any of them before they leave latest, but I will have enough covers for them to be useful.

    My current method is to open LL as soon as I get them and to save CP, but open one classic every time I open a LL. This allows me constant steady progress. I am able to level everyone in a uniform fashion.  It's the same way I went through all the previous tiers, why should I throw out a proven method just because it's the last tier?
  • StraycatStraycat Posts: 962 Critical Contributor

    My current method is to open LL as soon as I get them and to save CP, but open one classic every time I open a LL. This allows me constant steady progress. I am able to level everyone in a uniform fashion.  It's the same way I went through all the previous tiers, why should I throw out a proven method just because it's the last tier?
    1. The question is how to move to the 5* tier, not how to cover everyone
    2. The mechanics of the 5* tier is different than the 4* tier, so the strategy should be too

  • bbiglerbbigler Posts: 1,400 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2018
    The Champ Everyone method is a misnomer because you can't champ everyone because they keep releasing new 5*s and when they hit the Classic pool, it will take you a long time to cover them. But constantly opening Classics will give you a steady stream of 5*champs, eventually.  I ran a simulation of this on a spreadsheet to see how long it would take, assuming uneven distribution, which actually works to your advantage:

    With 200 CP per week on Classics, over 6 weeks it averages to 9 x 5* covers, which includes BH odds. Add 2 more 5* covers from 4*feeders and that's 11 covers per 6 week period. Then another 5* joins the pool from Latest which may have 4 covers already, assuming you're opening LT. If a new roster did this, it would take about 4.5 years to champ their first 5*!

    Keep in mind that 5* dilution gets worse over time, making it harder and harder for new players to get Classic 5*s, so my advice to new players is to start with a hoard of 200 pulls for Latest, then continue to open Latest and ignore Classics. After getting a few 5*champs under their belt, they could hoard for just the best 5*s.
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 5,327 Chairperson of the Boards
    How realistic is 200cp/week?
  • DogfaceDogface Posts: 806 Critical Contributor
    I think the OP's first option shouldn't be taken too literally. I believe the Champ Everyone is meant as having no specific focus on certain characters, but taking every cover as it comes. 
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 5,327 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2018
    How realistic is 200cp/week?
    Very much so, if you’re at least well into 4* land. That’s an average of 30CP a day, which is very manageable if you play at least SCL8 in PvE, and every PvP till at least the 10CP.
    Huh. I should start tracking my resource earn rates then.

    I play SCL8 to progression and get at least the 10 CP from every PVP. I've been tracking my pulls since 6/26 this year, and based on that, i've spent 1640cp on Classics. I threw a bunch of draws at some of the special stores, and i wasn't tracking that, so it's hard to pinpoint exactly how much I spent there (maybe 25-30 draws across all the stores), but just from what I've tracked that puts me around 263cp/week, so I guess I'm doing alright.
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