5* Wasp and 4* Wasp On Same Team?

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: 5* Wasp Node Giving Lesser Points?.

tiomono

Dragon_Nexus said:

Borstock said:

Rod5 said:

I have Wasp champed and her main (and pretty much only) use is high match damage.

She is hot garbage.

She really feels like a character that's meant to be the first of a few that use the swarm. Not sure I want a whole bunch of "swarm tile" characters, but she'd make at least SOME sense if they're about to drop a few more on us.

Hopefully when the DVD release happens we'll get 5* Michelle Pfeiffer.

So unless they retroactively change "Ants! Ants! Ants!" to drop swarm tiles that do the same thing somehow, or have 4* Wasp drop swarm tiles, 5* Wasp is really meeeh.

You cannot use 5* and 4* wasp together. I'm scratching my head about it too.

Brigby

tiomono said:

Dragon_Nexus said:

Hopefully when the DVD release happens we'll get 5* Michelle Pfeiffer.

So unless they retroactively change "Ants! Ants! Ants!" to drop swarm tiles that do the same thing somehow, or have 4* Wasp drop swarm tiles, 5* Wasp is really meeeh.

You cannot use 5* and 4* wasp together. I'm scratching my head about it too.

I'm not super familiar with the details surrounding Wasp's lore, but were there multiple Wasp suits? I thought there was only one, therefore it had to be either Janet or Hope that wore it, in order to become Wasp.

tiomono

Brigby said:

tiomono said:

Dragon_Nexus said:

Hopefully when the DVD release happens we'll get 5* Michelle Pfeiffer.

So unless they retroactively change "Ants! Ants! Ants!" to drop swarm tiles that do the same thing somehow, or have 4* Wasp drop swarm tiles, 5* Wasp is really meeeh.

You cannot use 5* and 4* wasp together. I'm scratching my head about it too.

I'm not super familiar with the details surrounding Wasp's lore, but were there multiple Wasp suits? I thought there was only one, therefore it had to be either Janet or Hope that wore it, in order to become Wasp.

Way more than one suit. Janet van dyne had done something with the quantum realm and kinda bioengineering I think. Her abilities were not a product of a suit. The suit is like the delivery system for the pym particles. Exposure to them for extended time frames essentially mutated her. She could even sprout antennae to talk to the ants. I think all of her powers eventually became part of her without any outside assistance. I'm sure the movies changed that though. I haven't seen antman and wasp yet.

Dragon_Nexus

Brigby said:

tiomono said:

Dragon_Nexus said:

Hopefully when the DVD release happens we'll get 5* Michelle Pfeiffer.

So unless they retroactively change "Ants! Ants! Ants!" to drop swarm tiles that do the same thing somehow, or have 4* Wasp drop swarm tiles, 5* Wasp is really meeeh.

You cannot use 5* and 4* wasp together. I'm scratching my head about it too.

I'm not super familiar with the details surrounding Wasp's lore, but were there multiple Wasp suits? I thought there was only one, therefore it had to be either Janet or Hope that wore it, in order to become Wasp.

The 4* version is based off the comic book design of Janet Van Dyne. The 5* version is the MCU version of Hope Van Dyne. Different costume, different hero.

Plus in the comics we have Nadia Pym who has her own Wasp costume. And let's not forget Hank Pym took up the mantle of Wasp at one point, too.

jamesh

Brigby said:

tiomono said:

Dragon_Nexus said:

Hopefully when the DVD release happens we'll get 5* Michelle Pfeiffer.

So unless they retroactively change "Ants! Ants! Ants!" to drop swarm tiles that do the same thing somehow, or have 4* Wasp drop swarm tiles, 5* Wasp is really meeeh.

You cannot use 5* and 4* wasp together. I'm scratching my head about it too.

I'm not super familiar with the details surrounding Wasp's lore, but were there multiple Wasp suits? I thought there was only one, therefore it had to be either Janet or Hope that wore it, in order to become Wasp.

If we're going strictly by film continuity, the Janet Wasp disappeared into the quantum realm in her Wasp suit.  So Hope couldn't have been wearing the same suit.  And after being rescued, there's no immediate reason why she couldn't continue to use the shrinking powers like Hank does.

On the comics side, the comic cover for 5* Wasp shows Nadia Pym, who is active along side Janet Van Dyne.

I don't think there is an obvious lore-based explanation for this: I think Marvel's marketing department wanted the new character to be called "Wasp", and that triggers the games automatic character exclusion code for the other Wasp.

DAZ0273

I'm labouring under the assumption that we are going to get a 5* Ant Man eventually. Ant Man and The Wasp - equal partners. Whether that is Scott (which would seem more likely) or Hank Pym I don't know.

And as previously mentioned 4* Wasp is the comic book version - her powers are a combination of exposure to Pym Particles and Bio-engineering - people always harp on about how Hank Pym is the "failed hero" with lots of different identities that didn't work and of course his creation of Ultron (in the comic books at least) but Wasp is the evidence that he is capable of awesome things - he even improved her powers once as a "birthday present" and people forget that she is also super strong proportionally at smaller sizes!

Dragon_Nexus

Yeah but he was also a very abusive husband and treated her like garbage a lot.

Granted, this image was apparently drawn in a way that missed the intention of the writer (it was meant to be a dismissive gesture that accidentally hit her), but even so there's plenty of dialogue between them as to how he resented her and considered himself the alpha male.

Dormammu

Brigby said:

I'm not super familiar with the details surrounding Wasp's lore, but were there multiple Wasp suits? I thought there was only one, therefore it had to be either Janet or Hope that wore it, in order to become Wasp.

Comic book Wasp (4-star, Janet) doesn't need a suit to shrink and sprout wings, those are just her powers. Movie Wasp (5-star, Hope) does need a suit. Either way they are two different people and it seems reasonable they could be a part of the same team.

DAZ0273

Dragon_Nexus said:

Yeah but he was also a very abusive husband and treated her like garbage a lot.

Granted, this image was apparently drawn in a way that missed the intention of the writer (it was meant to be a dismissive gesture that accidentally hit her), but even so there's plenty of dialogue between them as to how he resented her and considered himself the alpha male.

Opening disclaimer - There really is no excusing what happens in the issue and although Bob Hall has kind'a collaborated Jim Shooter's explanation of the misdrawn panel, there are definitely other parts in it where Hank is clearly being an absolute scumbag and those are Shooter's words in the balloons.

Now, some extra context - Hank had at this point suffered a nervous breakdown and was mentally ill. This is further witnessed by him then basically embarking on what can only be called a nefarious supervillain scheme to try and clear his name at his upcoming Avengers Court Martial for misconduct. Lets also reflect that the story doesn't let Hank off free at all - when the Avengers see Jan with a black eye they are appalled. When Hank grovellingly tries to apologise the Wasp tells him how sick she feels at the disgusting thing he has done. The two divorce.

The history of Hank is troubling even prior to this. I'm not sure he did "treat her like garbage a lot". In fact, that is something that seems to have been assumed or tacked on as revisionist history. Not to say that all was roses. He had a history of mental illness - when he first creates the Yellowjacket persona it is because he has been accidentally exposed to an explosion during an expirenent which warps his mind (he is convinced he has actually "killed" Hank Pym!) - the Wasp figures it out and plays along! They actually get married when he is not in his right mind! Later on - he suffers another mental breakdown and is taken advantage of by Ultron - he is again for all intents and purposes completely insane.

The Pym's relationship was fraught with other issues all along. The Wasp would mercilessly flirt with other heroes to make Hank jelaous then suddenly turn all her affection on him. He never wanted to be an Avenger but would rejoin the team to make Jan happy. Despite being brilliant, he could never really get things to work and his experiments ended in at least two high profile cases that fell into villainous use. He had profound guilt that Jan funded his work as she was already a wealthy heiress and could throw money at his affection.

All of this gave Shooter a pretty good build up and justification for Hank to be a fall guy and to examine the Pym marriage. That backhand though! And then they let the letterer add that awful "WHAK!" - Yeah, it might have been an error but you sure compounded it Marvel! In the end Hank is redeemed in the story but not in the reputation department with comic book fans, especially those who may never even have read the stories. Then Ultimates re-told this story in an even more twisted manner and well, Hank was done for.

Anyway the storyline had two serious underlying themes to it - mental illness and spousal abuse. And both rarely survive that "WHAK!". Jim Shooter says that he never intended to portray Hank as a "wife beater" but that is what gets remembered sadly.

pheregas

@DAZ0273

Another good synopsis.  There is so much going on there.  But one thing I was curious about, not knowing the context involved... 

Why is Jan wearing lingerie in the lab?

DAZ0273

pheregas said:

@DAZ0273

Another good synopsis.  There is so much going on there.  But one thing I was curious about, not knowing the context involved... 

Why is Jan wearing lingerie in the lab?

Well at the risk of getting too naughty for the forums, she had been waiting for Hank to finish up in his lab and come join her for some snugglin' - when he doesn't show up she goes looking for him ( Hank's lab is in their house) and stumbles into the crazy.

GrimSkald

DAZ0273 said:

Dragon_Nexus said:

Yeah but he was also a very abusive husband and treated her like garbage a lot.

Granted, this image was apparently drawn in a way that missed the intention of the writer (it was meant to be a dismissive gesture that accidentally hit her), but even so there's plenty of dialogue between them as to how he resented her and considered himself the alpha male.

Opening disclaimer - There really is no excusing what happens in the issue and although Bob Hall has kind'a collaborated Jim Shooter's explanation of the misdrawn panel, there are definitely other parts in it where Hank is clearly being an absolute scumbag and those are Shooter's words in the balloons.

Now, some extra context - Hank had at this point suffered a nervous breakdown and was mentally ill. This is further witnessed by him then basically embarking on what can only be called a nefarious supervillain scheme to try and clear his name at his upcoming Avengers Court Martial for misconduct. Lets also reflect that the story doesn't let Hank off free at all - when the Avengers see Jan with a black eye they are appalled. When Hank grovellingly tries to apologise the Wasp tells him how sick she feels at the disgusting thing he has done. The two divorce.

The history of Hank is troubling even prior to this. I'm not sure he did "treat her like garbage a lot". In fact, that is something that seems to have been assumed or tacked on as revisionist history. Not to say that all was roses. He had a history of mental illness - when he first creates the Yellowjacket persona it is because he has been accidentally exposed to an explosion during an expirenent which warps his mind (he is convinced he has actually "killed" Hank Pym!) - the Wasp figures it out and plays along! They actually get married when he is not in his right mind! Later on - he suffers another mental breakdown and is taken advantage of by Ultron - he is again for all intents and purposes completely insane.

The Pym's relationship was fraught with other issues all along. The Wasp would mercilessly flirt with other heroes to make Hank jelaous then suddenly turn all her affection on him. He never wanted to be an Avenger but would rejoin the team to make Jan happy. Despite being brilliant, he could never really get things to work and his experiments ended in at least two high profile cases that fell into villainous use. He had profound guilt that Jan funded his work as she was already a wealthy heiress and could throw money at his affection.

All of this gave Shooter a pretty good build up and justification for Hank to be a fall guy and to examine the Pym marriage. That backhand though! And then they let the letterer add that awful "WHAK!" - Yeah, it might have been an error but you sure compounded it Marvel! In the end Hank is redeemed in the story but not in the reputation department with comic book fans, especially those who may never even have read the stories. Then Ultimates re-told this story in an even more twisted manner and well, Hank was done for.

Anyway the storyline had two serious underlying themes to it - mental illness and spousal abuse. And both rarely survive that "WHAK!". Jim Shooter says that he never intended to portray Hank as a "wife beater" but that is what gets remembered sadly.

Yeah, the Ultimates Hank Pym/Wasp relationship was much worse - I read a summary of it and those particular pages and... yeah.  Pretty nasty stuff.  The worst part of it was the characters never really got any real resolution - Wasp dated Cap for a while, kind dismissed him as boring and old fashioned (and to be fair, that Ultimates Cap was definitely much more of a jerk than 616,) then got back together with Pym with no real explanation or resolution.  The problem with multiple writers.

Someone once summed up the Ulitmates universe with the following line - "If your name isn't Spider-Man, you're a terrible person."

DAZ0273

GrimSkald said

Yeah, the Ultimates Hank Pym/Wasp relationship was much worse - I read a summary of it and those particular pages and... yeah.  Pretty nasty stuff.  

The very worst thing about that Ultimates issue isn't even explicitly stated but implied. Hank has a can of bug spray which he uses on Wasp and in true superhero fashion it affects her, he then sends in his ants to try and finish her off. The chilling thing is that not only that he knew this would harm her but that he has a can readily available to use in his lab...it isn't like bugs pose any threat to him otherwise, he can mentally control them...

ZootSax

pheregas said:

Why is Jan wearing lingerie in the lab?

Considering what Psylocke wore to Auschwitz in the X-Men film, it hadn't occurred to me how ridiculous Wasp's wardrobe was until your comment

Quebbster

pheregas said:

@DAZ0273

Another good synopsis.  There is so much going on there.  But one thing I was curious about, not knowing the context involved... 

Why is Jan wearing lingerie in the lab?

As I understand it, the lab is in their house and Jan caught Hank working on the robot when she wondered what he was up to. Guess that is what she is wearing around the house.

On the other hand, her superhero outfit in that same issue is almost more revealing: