M19 Balancing Ideas

Mburn7

Tilwin90 said:

Mburn7 said:

4)  Chill out on the ranting man.  This thread is for more discussion on possible balancing ideas.  No need for so much negativity. 

You started a discussion on a very large topic (entire M19 balancing ideas - nowhere does it say rare+ by the way), so naturally since it was public on the forum I assumed we can join the discussion freely.
Then you turned personal with your comment. That's just fine I'll know to avoid your topics from now on... man.

Actually, it does say rare+ in my big, bold "Please Note" line.  Just saying.

And you are free to freely discuss stuff, its why I took the time to address a most of your (many) points in your post.
I wasn't trying to be mean with that last line, I just prefer a more neutral tone when having a complex discussion (as something like this tends to be)

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.

babar3355

Mburn7 said:

After the success of my DOM Balancing Ideas thread (https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/73082/dom-balancing-ideas/p1) I thought I would do it again for M19.  I'm starting with my ideas (and assorted other ones from the forums and my coalition) and I will update and change them based on everyone's input here.

Just like last time, please NOTE:
I'm not including commons and uncommons, since those really aren't meant to be that great anyway.

Also, these changes are meant to be realistic.  Not every card should be super powerful or great in every deck.  Also, asking for a ridiculous change is useless, since there is no way the devs would listen.

Luminarch Ascension:  Gain 1 shield per turn.  2 gets nutty fast.

Plague Wind:  No need for the life loss.  Its powerful enough without it.

Blue Sun's Zenith:  Drop the maximum stored mana to 5.  Make it more on par with Day's Undoing and Behold the Beyond (while still being slightly better)

Summoner's Pact:  Not sure about this one, but it seems really really strong.  Maybe up the life loss to make it more punishing but still usable (1.5x powerxtoughness?)

Fraying Omnipotence:  Ditch the max of 20.  Both players lose half their life, period.  Also, allow it to be cast without a full list of targets (creatures on both sides and cards in both hands), just give it a confirmation window instead.

Bone Dragon:  Make it 5 or 6 cards to exile instead of 8.  8 is really hard to get consistently without shenanigans, and with those shenanigans there are better options to play.

Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner:  NEEDS MORE BEEF.  10/10 for 15 would be much better.  12/12 would be fantastic.

Ajani's Last Stand:  I haven't heard much about this at all, nor have I seen it played.  Tokens should probably be 6/6 instead of 4/4, but I'm not positive.  Could be fine as is. Most likely fine as is

Banefire:  I like it, but 10 damage never feels like enough for creature removal.  Up the stored mana to 12 (or make it X+2 damage).  12 seems to be the best for creature removal/direct damage.

Vivien's Invocation:  This needs to cost more.  I'd say make it somewhere in the 23-28 range.  That ability in the color of beefy creatures is waaay too good at rare.

Reliquary Tower:  This definitely needs a buff.  Maybe not ditch the drain, but make it a set amount of mana (say, 10) every turn.  Or, keep it the same but have the gem conversion happen after the drain and draw.

Did I miss any?  Am I totally off base with these?  Did I not go far enough?  Comment below!

Well I hope the developers don't take this thread as the general consensus.

I disagree with all of your MP nerfs. BSZ is an amazing card but not an auto-win by any means.   Plague winds wouldn't even really be getting a nerf by losing the damage.. but the damage does add some fun flavor. If anything PW should have its cost slightly increased.  I can't see a good argument for SP or LA getting a nerf.  They are good... they are MPs... There is also the problem of the bait and switch.  If players have dumped tons of resources targeting these cards, there needs to be a REALLY strong reason for  nerfing them.  And "a bit too good" is sufficient.  There should always be more willingness to buff duds than to nerf bombs, baring they don't violate the 3 tenants for nerfing as laid out by Oktagon.

Agree with the buff to Fraying Omni.

Bone Dragon should be exile 1-2 for mythic.  Plenty of ways to bounce/exile him to deal with him.

I like buffing Banefire to 12.

Vivation - Disagree... its one of the few solid rares in the set and will be a staple in green decks.  But I don't think it needs a huge cost nerf... its just good, not meta warping. Leave it alone.

Some other cards that need a buff are Druid of Horns, Gigantosaurus, and for God's sake Amulet of Safekeeping.

Mburn7

babar3355 said:

Mburn7 said:

After the success of my DOM Balancing Ideas thread (https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/73082/dom-balancing-ideas/p1) I thought I would do it again for M19.  I'm starting with my ideas (and assorted other ones from the forums and my coalition) and I will update and change them based on everyone's input here.

Just like last time, please NOTE:
I'm not including commons and uncommons, since those really aren't meant to be that great anyway.

Also, these changes are meant to be realistic.  Not every card should be super powerful or great in every deck.  Also, asking for a ridiculous change is useless, since there is no way the devs would listen.

Luminarch Ascension:  Gain 1 shield per turn.  2 gets nutty fast.

Plague Wind:  No need for the life loss.  Its powerful enough without it.

Blue Sun's Zenith:  Drop the maximum stored mana to 5.  Make it more on par with Day's Undoing and Behold the Beyond (while still being slightly better)

Summoner's Pact:  Not sure about this one, but it seems really really strong.  Maybe up the life loss to make it more punishing but still usable (1.5x powerxtoughness?)

Fraying Omnipotence:  Ditch the max of 20.  Both players lose half their life, period.  Also, allow it to be cast without a full list of targets (creatures on both sides and cards in both hands), just give it a confirmation window instead.

Bone Dragon:  Make it 5 or 6 cards to exile instead of 8.  8 is really hard to get consistently without shenanigans, and with those shenanigans there are better options to play.

Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner:  NEEDS MORE BEEF.  10/10 for 15 would be much better.  12/12 would be fantastic.

Ajani's Last Stand:  I haven't heard much about this at all, nor have I seen it played.  Tokens should probably be 6/6 instead of 4/4, but I'm not positive.  Could be fine as is. Most likely fine as is

Banefire:  I like it, but 10 damage never feels like enough for creature removal.  Up the stored mana to 12 (or make it X+2 damage).  12 seems to be the best for creature removal/direct damage.

Vivien's Invocation:  This needs to cost more.  I'd say make it somewhere in the 23-28 range.  That ability in the color of beefy creatures is waaay too good at rare.

Reliquary Tower:  This definitely needs a buff.  Maybe not ditch the drain, but make it a set amount of mana (say, 10) every turn.  Or, keep it the same but have the gem conversion happen after the drain and draw.

Did I miss any?  Am I totally off base with these?  Did I not go far enough?  Comment below!

Well I hope the developers don't take this thread as the general consensus.

I disagree with all of your MP nerfs. BSZ is an amazing card but not an auto-win by any means.   Plague winds wouldn't even really be getting a nerf by losing the damage.. but the damage does add some fun flavor. If anything PW should have its cost slightly increased.  I can't see a good argument for SP or LA getting a nerf.  They are good... they are MPs... There is also the problem of the bait and switch.  If players have dumped tons of resources targeting these cards, there needs to be a REALLY strong reason for  nerfing them.  And "a bit too good" is sufficient.  There should always be more willingness to buff duds than to nerf bombs, baring they don't violate the 3 tenants for nerfing as laid out by Oktagon.

Agree with the buff to Fraying Omni.

Bone Dragon should be exile 1-2 for mythic.  Plenty of ways to bounce/exile him to deal with him.

I like buffing Banefire to 12.

Vivation - Disagree... its one of the few solid rares in the set and will be a staple in green decks.  But I don't think it needs a huge cost nerf... its just good, not meta warping. Leave it alone.

Some other cards that need a buff are Druid of Horns, Gigantosaurus, and for God's sake Amulet of Safekeeping.

The point of this thread is to start a discussion.  If the majority of comments disagree with what I said, I will change it.  Summoner's Pact and Vivien's Invocation are definitely on the low priority end of these changes, both were included here because from what I have seen they are becoming staple spells (which is something Oktagon has stated they would like to avoid).

My nerf to Luminarch is more because of how right now it is a "kill it or game in 3" card, which isn't something I like seeing.  Changing it to a "kill it or game in 5" card feels like it keeps the power level, but makes it a little more reasonable to deal with.

Druid of Horns and Amulet could probably use a buff, I didn't include them because I can't think of a way to do that without completely changing the card or overdoing it.  If someone comes up with a feasible idea, I'll put that in too.

I'll update with the cost increase to Plague Wind, though.  That also feels like it would work.  Also lowered the nerf to Vivien's and increased the buff to Bone Dragon.  I am not a (good) card designer, I know my values are more arbitrary than they probably should be.

nerdstrap

Who cares about balance when 50% of the cards don’t work as written? What a waste of time even reading this was. And this comment too. Ugh

[Deleted User]

I wrote a novel... again... now no ones going to read this... (and i may have wasted more of my time instead of wasting my already precious time in-game). Sad face lol.

You seem like a good person, as I have seen your comments here and there. Also, I respect the the things you have done or try to do to make this game better. And, I have absolutely nothing against you or the post that you made; but honestly, after I read this discussion/post I was little irritated/upset/angry because:

1. It did not feel objective; but, more subjective
2. It did not take into account possible variables or situations
3. It lacks explanation and possibly more in-depth research

4. Masterpieces are masterpieces for a reason - they are powerful and extremely difficult to obtain (generally). As rarity scales upward the power level should definitely scale upward as well. "Its a masterpiece.. it should be a powerhouse not a butt-sterpiece."

5. (I believe) Commons/uncommons/rares should be looked at as well. (I believe true balance is attained with all rarities are balanced as different rarities affect players at different levels. Additionally, I believe, within each rarity, approximately 50% or above of cards should be usable and great; 30% or above should be usable but great/good, average, niche, build-around-me, etc; and 20% or below should be mediocre or less than average. This would allow for more useful cards instead having Chitinous Cloak, Oakenform, Murderer's Axe, Knights Pledge, Honed Khopesh all of which do the same thing for the same cost but have slight differences such as format, type, color.

6. I had to take my time to write this. I really really didn't want to but was actually afraid some of these changes might happen in addition to the fact that some of these changes I absolutely cannot agree with.

Lets talk about Blue Sun Zenith (BSZ) first. It is a broken card as it is extremely powerful but that is not to say that it is completely game breaking since it doesn't enable endless loops so readily (granted a specific deck maybe able to achieve it; however, a lot of cards are capable of this if all requirements are met).

There are some perspectives that must be accounted for when looking at this card; namely 1) power level when controlled by the AI and 2) power level when controlled by a player 3) power level among similar cards

AI Controlled Aspect

When looking at 1), it is clear that the power level is not as high since spells are cast last by the AI (with creatures and then supports coming first). Therefore, the odds of it getting cast is relatively lower (unless a specific build is made, of course). Additionally, the AI does not have the ability to exile its cards from hand and the card does not have that innate ability within it; thus, the threat level is greatly reduced in general (We've all seen the AI cast Hazoret's Undying Fury but already had a full hand so only got the benefit of 1 card - not so strong in these cases). Furthermore, the card requires 16 mana; which is not a cheap cost despite the fact that the overall mana gain per card cost is absurdly high - it is a HUGE value card. Also the AI does not cast it prior to having the stored mana completely fulfilled; thus, generating more of a delay time-frame.

The main problem when the AI controls this card is when the AI is controlling a deck that uses specific cards or has a means to dump his entire hand, which is entirely possible. Many people are using this in conjunction with other prime cards to combo play it, i.e. Storm the Vault, Spell Swindle, Blue Sun Zenith, and at times Djinn of Wishes. Although this is completely viable, it is not game breaking until all the pieces hit the board - there is certainly some luck involved and hence can be countered. Not an easy battle but still counter-able by bashing the AIs face fast enough to never see the combo; destroying Djinn Wishes when the AIs hand is full; immediately destroying Storm the Vault, etc etc. Therefore, it is not completely meta warping but it does impact the meta.

Player Controlled Aspect

Now when looking at 2), this card is great in specific situations. One is right at the start of a match. If you have it, it might be more beneficial to start charging the card to get ahead when you exile your hand and cast it ASAP. This way your cards are essential significantly cheaper or you just get ahead on board by casting them. The advantage is clear as it severely accelerates you. Two is when you use the card while you are on the back foot to regain the advantage or even in those severely unfavorable gem match games (i.e. you are only able to match off colors and end up giving the AI cascades). Two and half is when you aren't necessarily behind but aren't way ahead but have it as a back up in hand, charged, for when you do get behind on board - the insurance policy. Three is when you are already ahead on board - it becomes a MOAR overkill card. These are some of the main instances in which the card shines but doesn't make it good at all times.

In fact, as someone else mentioned there are times when its in your hand but feels very awkward so it gets pitched/moved to the bottom of your hand for more key cards. The main weakness of this card is that the value of the card depreciates severely based on how many cards you can actually draw and the amount of mana you have stored on it.

For instance, BSZ is charged but you also have other cards charged and feel it would be a waste to exile those cards in order to get the full value of BSZ. In other words, consider the cases where you already have 3-4 great cards (charged or uncharged) in hand; it feels awkward to cast it for only 2-3 more cards since you don't get full value (you saved 16 mana but get back 24-36; however, since its only 3 cards with random deck shuffled RNG; it does not always hit what you need). This furthered when you have 3 great cards but gamble and exile all 3 in hand and draw 6 cards of useless-ness (rare but possible) or maybe 5 cards of useless-ness and 1-2 decent cards.

Furthermore, depending on the deck, it can autocast cards you don't want it too (remember the StV-Swindle-BSZ combo? Casting 3 Spell swindles in 1 turn doesn't feel so amazing, granted the treasures would fuel StV). I should probably use a different example than that Swindle-StV one but you get the point - it can become an auto-cast nightmare with certain cards.

Additionally, it doesn't always work well with activate gems that draw you cards since you lose out on drawing a card off of BSZ. And sometimes its annoying that it draws 6 cards cause my Etali won't steal a card from the opponent.

Moreover, this card is at the mercy of deck shuffling RNG, card draw RNG, and the constituents of your deck (as many powerful cards are). If your deck is lame... well the card will probably perform lamely but still give you some advantage. It's like shoving StV into a super duper high mana cost deck and never drawing it... then when you do and get StV down on the board, it gets destroyed immediately because it took forever to get to it and your opponent was already ahead on board with a counter ready, etc, etc.

And the most important thing is that it cannot single-handed create endless waves by itself. The stored mana decreases as BSZ fetches more BSZs. In other words, cast BSZ1 (16mana) get another BSZ2 (12mana), cast BSZ2 get another BSZ3 (8mana), etc, etc - it depreciates. Of course this can be abused, especially in legacy; but, its not as if there wasn't enough to be abused in legacy currently. 

Side note: This may be a bug; but, BSZ asks to be cast when its stored mana is NOT full; however, once full it auto-casts. This can be annoying at times as well since you lose control of the casting sequence and when you want to cast it.

Power Level Among Similar Cards:

So we have Days Undoing and Beyond the Behold as references you provided. However, all these cards function differently and vary drastically in power level.

Affecting the hand/card draw:

Days Undoing reshuffles your hand into the library (and the opponents hand); it is a guaranteed to draw you 5 cards because it removes the cards in your hand; thus, the AI is fully capable of using this card relatively effectively.

Beyond the Behold discards your hand; it is guaranteed to draw you 6 cards because it removes the cards in your hand; once again AI can use relatively effectively.

BSZ does not affect your current hand unless you manually exile cards. There is no guarantee on how many cards you draw since it doesn't innately remove cards from you hand; the AI cannot use this effectively.

When looking solely at these effects, Beyond the Behold is the strongest card since 1) it enables graveyard effects easily 2) draws the most cards 3) it draws the remaining cards from your deck; it does not recreate the deck or suddenly affect the deck RNG such that you have a lower chance of drawing newer cards/copies. In other words, if I have 3 copies of the same card in hand but its not the one I need; there is a very low chance I will redraw it but rather get other cards that I need at the time. But depends on the deck... maybe you would prefer more of the same copies.

Days Undoing is interesting because it affects the remaining cards in your deck and reshuffles select copies of certain cards. I don't know if it just recreates a new deck upon shuffling but since you cast days undoing at a time when you are digging for something else or when you need better cards usually, there is a higher chance of redrawing the useless cards you reshuffled into your deck. But its extra strength comes from the fact that it can also act as a mana drain card since you can reshuffle your opponents hand after they have spent x turns filling it up with mana. This additional functionality provides a medium to slight advantage after negating the fact that it may end up helping your opponent get to better cards on occasion. As a result of this extra Oomph, it can be slightly better or slightly worse than Beyond the Behold. Once again depends on the deck.

BSZ is technically the worst but because human players are smart enough to exile cards from hand; it can also be the best.

Just by isolating one part of a card we can see it varies drastically on other factors like is it AI controlled, player controlled, deck/theme constituents, hand constituents, and current state of the match.

Cost for mana gain:

Standard Meta:

Legacy Meta:

I am not going to do these... its gonna take to long...

My conclusion is this: there is no game breaking reason to justify nerfing BSZ, especially, the severe nerf you have provided.

HOWEVER, should a nerf be warranted I believe that merely removing the "+2" (or at the severest level, making it "-2") could be relatively reasonable. This is a VERY tentative statement and I absolutely do NOT condone this right now, as in order to nerf this card you have to look at all possible 12 mana cost and under cards currently in both standard and legacy meta; then, all 10 cost and under cards; then all 8 cost and under cards. Then you would have to look at all the powerhouse cards and consider adjusting them all accordingly. Then you have to provide an opportunity for those who already worked really hard to obtain the card reasonable compensation. Then you would have to alleviate all the irritated/upset people from the nerf.

Balancing 1 card is not balancing. Balancing requires the modification of ALL possible cards to be in line with one another, especially during an addition or subtraction to the cards available in this game (i.e. new set releases).

FindingHeart8

jimpark said:

LOTS AND LOTS OF THINGS

there a tl:dr section you want to add in there

Mburn7

@jimpark (I'm not quoting your comment directly because it is very long) you make some very interesting points.  Thank you for taking the time to go through this.

My counter:

1)  You are correct, this thread is entirely subjective.  The purpose is to start a discussion so that we can get a more objective result.  Not all of these cards need nerfs/buffs, but I feel like they are over/under used as is and may benefit from it.

2)  Reducing the stored mana cap fro Blue Sun's Zenith wouldn't be as huge of a nerf as you think, since it would also have the effect of reducing the cost.  If my (somewhat arbitrary) number of 5 is used, the card would then do the following:
Cost: 11.  Effect:  Draw 5 cards, they each gain 7 mana
I think that would still be pretty powerful and masterpiece-worthy.  Making the cap 6 or 7 would still be fine.  As is, refilling your hand and giving 12 mana to each is just nuts.  Refilling your hand and giving slightly less mana is still very very strong, but much less nuts.

3)  It has been argued in the past as to whether or not strong combos and cards should be nerfed if the AI is unable to use them properly.  I don't believe a consensus was ever reached.  I would rather not argue that here.
For this thread I assumed the answer was yes for simplicity's sake.  If it seems the majority of people don't agree with that I can and will change my post to reflect that.

[Deleted User]

Mburn7 said:

Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner:  NEEDS MORE BEEF.  10/10 for 15 would be much better.  12/12 would be fantastic.

I do not agree. I won't elaborate unless perhaps asked to; but a 10/10 or 12/12 for 15 mana is excessive. I believe an 8/8 would be more reasonable for 15 mana. I might be accept a 8/9 as well.

Mburn7 said:

Banefire:  I like it, but 10 damage never feels like enough for creature removal.  Up the stored mana to 12 (or make it X+2 damage).  12 seems to be the best for creature removal/direct damage.

Reliquary Tower:  This definitely needs a buff.  Maybe not ditch the drain, but make it a set amount of mana (say, 10) every turn.  Or, keep it the same but have the gem conversion happen after the drain and draw.

Banefire I agree.

Reliquary tower needs something but don't know what.

And why is the horse-man land masterpiece not on here?

Mburn7

jimpark said:

Mburn7 said:

Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner:  NEEDS MORE BEEF.  10/10 for 15 would be much better.  12/12 would be fantastic.

I do not agree. I won't elaborate unless perhaps asked to; but a 10/10 or 12/12 for 15 mana is excessive. I believe an 8/8 would be more reasonable for 15 mana. I might be accept a 8/9 as well.

Mburn7 said:

Banefire:  I like it, but 10 damage never feels like enough for creature removal.  Up the stored mana to 12 (or make it X+2 damage).  12 seems to be the best for creature removal/direct damage.

Reliquary Tower:  This definitely needs a buff.  Maybe not ditch the drain, but make it a set amount of mana (say, 10) every turn.  Or, keep it the same but have the gem conversion happen after the drain and draw.

Banefire I agree.

Reliquary tower needs something but don't know what.

And why is the horse-man land masterpiece not on here?

For Palladia a slight cost increase is fine too.  A 10/10 for 17 or 18 is still a masterpiece, even with the berserker.  A 6/6 berserker is pretty bad.  And Palladia is supposed to be a huge beatstick (remember, a 6/6 flying trample in paper is a game-ender) and at 6/6 it really isn't.

As for Courser, I have heard a lot of good things about it.  It is super niche (only really good for a land-based deck), but in that niche it is very very good.  I don't think it really needs a buff in that case.  I like good niche cards.

[Deleted User]

Mburn7 said:

2)  Reducing the stored mana cap fro Blue Sun's Zenith wouldn't be as huge of a nerf as you think, since it would also have the effect of reducing the cost.  If my (somewhat arbitrary) number of 5 is used, the card would then do the following:
Cost: 11.  Effect:  Draw 5 cards, they each gain 7 mana
I think that would still be pretty powerful and masterpiece-worthy.  Making the cap 6 or 7 would still be fine.  As is, refilling your hand and giving 12 mana to each is just nuts.  Refilling your hand and giving slightly less mana is still very very strong, but much less nuts.

This option that you present is more reasonable than the stored mana 5 initially presented; however, I cannot agree or disagree with it currently - I am unsure.

With this particular card, I believe the least impactful nerf should be used and then reassessed again to reach a balance. In other words, this card needs to be a staged nerf since there really isn't any beta testing and it has already been out for a while and obtained by many. There could be a lot of backlash with this one. I would be extremely careful and conservative with this card, honestly.

So keeping in flavor of the "10 stored mana" concept; perhaps starting off with a very light nerf and then increasing it, if necessary. To this end, perhaps merely removing the "+2" to start with. Then the 2nd stage nerf would be "-2" Then a 3rd stage nerf if necessary.

Side note: I have an inexplicably odd feeling this card will change drastically from masterpiece status to less than masterpiece status really fast if it is not nerfed in stages.

Mburn7

jimpark said:

Mburn7 said:

2)  Reducing the stored mana cap fro Blue Sun's Zenith wouldn't be as huge of a nerf as you think, since it would also have the effect of reducing the cost.  If my (somewhat arbitrary) number of 5 is used, the card would then do the following:
Cost: 11.  Effect:  Draw 5 cards, they each gain 7 mana
I think that would still be pretty powerful and masterpiece-worthy.  Making the cap 6 or 7 would still be fine.  As is, refilling your hand and giving 12 mana to each is just nuts.  Refilling your hand and giving slightly less mana is still very very strong, but much less nuts.

This option that you present is more reasonable than the stored mana 5 initially presented; however, I cannot agree or disagree with it currently - I am unsure.

With this particular card, I believe the least impactful nerf should be used and then reassessed again to reach a balance. In other words, this card needs to be a staged nerf since there really isn't any beta testing and it has already been out for a while and obtained by many. There could be a lot of backlash with this one. I would be extremely careful and conservative with this card, honestly.

So keeping in flavor of the "10 stored mana" concept; perhaps starting off with a very light nerf and then increasing it, if necessary. To this end, perhaps merely removing the "+2" to start with. Then the 2nd stage nerf would be "-2" Then a 3rd stage nerf if necessary.

Side note: I have an inexplicably odd feeling this card will change drastically from masterpiece status to less than masterpiece status really fast if it is not nerfed in stages.

The reason I am opting to reduce the stored mana cap instead of the +2 is to allow the cost to change with the new ability.  16 mana is rather expensive for the spell, even if you get it all back.  By reducing the cost along with the mana gain it should keep the card extremely powerful, just slightly less so.

[Deleted User]

Mburn7 said:

jimpark said:

Mburn7 said:

Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner:  NEEDS MORE BEEF.  10/10 for 15 would be much better.  12/12 would be fantastic.

I do not agree. I won't elaborate unless perhaps asked to; but a 10/10 or 12/12 for 15 mana is excessive. I believe an 8/8 would be more reasonable for 15 mana. I might be accept a 8/9 as well.

Mburn7 said:

Banefire:  I like it, but 10 damage never feels like enough for creature removal.  Up the stored mana to 12 (or make it X+2 damage).  12 seems to be the best for creature removal/direct damage.

Reliquary Tower:  This definitely needs a buff.  Maybe not ditch the drain, but make it a set amount of mana (say, 10) every turn.  Or, keep it the same but have the gem conversion happen after the drain and draw.

Banefire I agree.

Reliquary tower needs something but don't know what.

And why is the horse-man land masterpiece not on here?

For Palladia a slight cost increase is fine too.  A 10/10 for 17 or 18 is still a masterpiece, even with the berserker.  A 6/6 berserker is pretty bad.  And Palladia is supposed to be a huge beatstick (remember, a 6/6 flying trample in paper is a game-ender) and at 6/6 it really isn't.

As for Courser, I have heard a lot of good things about it.  It is super niche (only really good for a land-based deck), but in that niche it is very very good.  I don't think it really needs a buff in that case.  I like good niche cards.

6/6 berserker is really weak, I agree.

Honestly, flavor-wise, I almost feel like he should be stronger than the dinosaurs but that is far too much.

Reasons I suggested 8/8 or maybe, just maybe (really big maybe) 8/9:

He is the only flying berserker in the game. Generally, berserkers are non-fliers. Therefore, this guy breaks that standard. Considering this, he should be weaker than other "ground" berserkers.

The 10/10-esque berserker stat line is found with:

10/10 Gishath 26 mana

12/12 Ghalta 24 mana

9/9 Zacama 25 mana

8/8 (12/12) Decimator 21 mana

10/8 Breaker of Armies 19 mana

6/6 (9/9) Scab Clan Berserker 16 mana (requires surviving once to reach stat line so iffy)

The 10/10-esque non-berserker stat line is found with:

9/8 bone dragon 17 mana

10/6 Aethertide Whale 17 mana

9/6 Bane of Bala Ged 18 mana

8/8 (11/11 - 13/13) 18 mana

10/10 Gigantosaurus 19 mana

Not going to count Demon of catastrophes

etc etc etc

judging from this information, a 10/10 berserker with flying should be really expensive 19+ mana

He also has hexproof for a minimum of 1 turn/attack. His hexproof is a benefit in actuality as it protects him from a limited number of threats increasing the odds of him berserking.

As a creature having berserker he will damage or kill an opposing creature (if there is one). If he kills the creature and dies; its a 1 for 1. If he survives, he immediately heads into 2 for 1 territory and beyond since he can kill another creature or eat up a removal spell from your opponent. And this is not considering the fact that he is already a body/creature and does damage to the opponent through trample.

An 8/8 for 16 mana is a relatively balanced stat line when looking at comparable cards in the mana ranges of 14-18. This will allow him to at least be a 1 for 1 in his mana range. Then I was willing to give him one more toughness, making him a 8/9 to increase his survive-ability as there are few 9+ power threats in that range. Also it helps him to survive against a 4 power double striker.

but he should not be a card that competes with 20+ mana creatures like Gishath Ghalta or Zacama. He would be too strong.

8/8 at 16 mana. maybe an 8/9 at 16-17 mana. If you want a 10/10, then he needs to cost 20+ mana (more like 22-23+)

[Deleted User]

FindingHeart8 said:

jimpark said:

LOTS AND LOTS OF THINGS

there a tl:dr section you want to add in there

read it and tell me where it should go lol. I will see about using that in the future.. I actually had to google that to find out what it meant. Learn something new everyday!

Stalker

I hope the fact M19 is shiney and new that the effect of people already bored with Dom will use new cards a lot at first and not necessarily a full indication that certain cards are must haves. 
I side boarded a few cards just to see how if any of the new pulls I have work well. Yes the cards were insterted in to all PW’s decks that could cast them to try out diff color combos and the like. Wouldn’t think that because I see a card so often its a must have. If I lose to it constantly then maybe I build to neutralize or ask for adjustments if I see no weaknesses. Just mho

FindingHeart8

jimpark said:

FindingHeart8 said:

jimpark said:

LOTS AND LOTS OF THINGS

there a tl:dr section you want to add in there

read it and tell me where it should go lol. I will see about using that in the future.. I actually had to google that to find out what it meant. Learn something new everyday!

well played sir, well played.

I'd like to, if I get the time and energy (coffee wearing off).  I skimmed parts of it and it looks like you've put a lot of thought into this.  I haven't really placed a flag in this thread yet, more of just a visitor.  As your position is aligned with mine (I'm generally anti-nerf), I'm not sure of what to add until I see counter-arguments (that are hopefully shorter lol)

Aeroplane

How come green keeps getting these unplayable green monster masterpieces? I got the Knight, Piper and now Courser. How are these better than Slimefoot?

Mburn7

Aeroplane said:

How come green keeps getting these unplayable green monster masterpieces? I got the Knight, Piper and now Courser. How are these better than Slimefoot?

Short answer:  They aren't.

Long answer:  Not every card is generally powerful.  Some are made to be really powerful in niche roles.  Courser and Knight are really good in the specific types of decks they are built for, but pretty awful otherwise (Piper is, sadly, not really useful at all).  Also, Slimefoot is an incredibly powerful card, both in paper and pq.  I don't think he's a fair comparison to any creature.

Gunmix25

Tilwin90 said:

How is Ball Lightning fine?! I don't care that it destroys itself, on contraire that can be a huge advantage and turn it into an even worse offender!

Olivia was incredibly bad because it swung for 11 immediately and was a lifelinker, but this guy is MUCH more oppressive. It has double strike, it has trample (that's right, at least Olivia damage could be stopped with a simple blocker), it can grow incredibly big, and then it just disappears (did I mention this makes recursions possible?). Hell, add an enraged event effect in the mix and you might just say bye-bye.

And let's not talk about Murder, Lich's Mastery and Seal Away.
Murder itself needs to be in your hand for this to work... turn 1 Ball Lightning can be incredibly oppressive and wrecks < X damage objectives.
Short of that, you have Lich's Mastery which although powerful, is still a liability against red (I only play it when I ABSOLUTELY have to), and Seal Away is this teensy fragile support that goes poof against red.

I don't mind interesting and powerful cards that require some setup. BSZ is powerful, but I found more often I'd end up dumping it at the bottom of the hand as I was not ready to cast it and wasn't all that happy to draw multiple copies. The black sweeper is not that much better when compared to Vona's Hunger either, and I have yet to see it make a big difference for me. River's Rebuke remains the better card.

For Ascension I don't really care about how many shields it gets. I had a game where I dumped three of them followed by one Rupture Spire. Be it for me I don't really rely on the "extra shields" clause, that's not what makes it incredibly powerful anyway.

Summoner's Pact is one dangerous cookie. It sure is super cheap, but the damage can stack up and there are quite a few matches where I can't actually play it because it deals damage to myself. It's a good card, just nowhere near as insane as Deploy the Gatewatch or Primevals' Rebirth. And yes, I'd rather pull cards like Gaea's Revenge, Djinn and Jodah with it, simply because they are expensive so it's worth cheating them into play, but the damage does stack up. Nowadays, Nissa's Revelation 20 lifegain is not enough for how fast damage flows back and forward.

As for Vivien's Invocation, I haven't included it in any of my decks as it's expensive enough and nowhere near that interesting. Sure, it can act as removal, but since I play dual colored, I have much better removal at my disposal. It is at best a useful tool for mono-green decks, and nodes that require casting X or less creatures. I'd leave it where it is, it's anything but overpowered.

Omnipotence has the problem of being uncastable if there are no creatures or cards in hand from what I heard, and that's a bigger issue with it being underpowered than the 20 damage limit. But I agree it's useless...

Bone Dragon is bugged as hell from what I heard, so before that is clarified I'm not even sure how it could be that good. I looked at it, put it into the "never gonna get played" mythics closet and that's that. Too much fuss for too little gain, there are much better recursing creatures out there.

The triple colored dragons are a joke, not worth the hype.
- I played with Vaevictis and he can be horribly swingy - setting up the game so that it doesn't gain your opponent cards is not worth the effort. Darigaaz is several levels of power above it. He needs haste!
- Palladia Mors doesn't do anything for me just because (s)he is small. Turn her into a 10/10 and she will actually start competing with Gishath.
- Chromium is just weird, in paper magic he makes some sense, but in MTGPQ he's useless. He can dodge targeted removal I guess, and that can be annoying, but that's a problem you already have with hexproof creatures, so players are prepared for that in the first place. The flash on him is totally useless in MTGPQ.
- Arcades is an interesting cookie. I still have to play with him but he is probably the most interesting out of the four.

Banefire I agree could go higher, but keep in mind that sometimes stored mana can mess with your mana gains and cascades. So there is a delicate balance there. I actually found it much more powerful than I gave it credit initially, and I'm not sure the extra damage cap is needed.

Reliquary Tower is useless, bless its heart.

I'm surprised I hear nobody complaining about useless cards like Amulet of Safekeeping, Courser of Kruphix, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Diregraf Ghoul, Druid of Horns, Guttersnipe, Lightning Strike, Shock and Runic Armasaur,

Wow.... so uh... is there anything you like about M19?

Viviens Invocation is ridiculously powerful. Especially when paired with Muldrotha and any other creature greater than the cost of Invocation. I have been able to destroy creatures every turn while stacking my own. The combo is strong enough to win on its own. While powerful I don't think it needs balancing seeing that muldrotha is the key to the combo. On it's own V.I. is fine

Reliquary Tower is far more useless than any of the examples you gave below it. Although Diregraf ghoul is pretty close. Anyways,  I've  Two choices I see to fix it.

1. If the Devs see fit to keep it as is... then provide a healthy Mana gain bonus for PW colors that last for the turn. 

2. My original idea, move the draw and mana wipe phase to the end of the turn. This still gives a mana wipe and nullifies stored or charged flash cards being held over. But it doesn't interfere with mana conversions st the beginning of the turn. 


If you have to move BSZ to the bottom of your hand, you're using it wrong or the builds you have are too expensive for it to be effective. Just sayin' 

BSZ needs to be tweaked down a notch. It's like pull from tomorrow and Riskars Expertise had a blue baby. 


Ball lightning is crazy powerful but only in the hands of a few PW. In legacy though,  paired with God pharoah's gift... I imagine that will be a very short match. I think it should exile itself instead of being destroyed

FindingHeart8

my favorite thing about m19 is that, while there is a range of decent-great cards in the set...they aren't so great that I feel compelled to invest a great deal of time/energy/$$$ in getting packs like I did with both Rivals and Dominaria.

Theros

Nalthazar said:

None of the Masterpieces should be touched. Yes, they are very powerful cards, but they do a lot of good for the game. Firstly, they give us chase cards that are incredibly rare that we will want to play for. If the cards aren’t exciting to get, the game loses a lot of appeal. Secondly, none of them just win the game outright in an incredibly broken way. They are incredibly strong on their own, but I was able to do more with Omniscience and HuF. Next, if they just nerf the best cards in standard, the game will get stale. The current standard is already slow because of how bad Core is. There are good cards, but it doesn’t stand up to other sets/blocks apart from the masterpieces. If you developers are reading this post, please don’t take it as the entire communities stance. Many in my coalitions of over 60 people do not agree with this.

If there are going to be balancing adjustments, then I would like to see Core’s mythics brought up to par with other sets rather than taking the masterpieces down. We have seen complaint after complaint since masterpieces were introduced about them being too weak, and now that they are viable and powerful for their costs, they get an article like this. (I’m excluding Omniscience from them being weak). 

Masterpieces are supposed to be powerful indeed. But that does not justify making truly broken cards. Should we not point out/not criticize the obvious cause it's a masterpiece. There must be distinction between reasonable and exaggerated. BSZ is exaggerated power
w