Picking Support to Destroy.

Monkeynutts

Will we be ever be able to  choose a support to destroy?

Lich's Mastery is a stupid card. and having in games with loads of support on the board and your spell and picking everything but it really sucks.
I know there probably is an "order" that they are destroyed, but wasting 10 turns waiting is stupid ruins the "enjoyability" of the game.....

Rhasget

In the big PvP events I always pick a PW with multiple options to destroy supports. Especially if there are 'Take x or less damage'.

But if there could be a targeted support removal option (should come with a heavier cost compared to the removal that exist now) it would be a nice balance.

Monkeynutts

Again this makes certain planeswalkers less useful.

Having OLD Origins supports like the Hixus still game ruined if they end up in the corners.

Lichs Mastery is a joke

Avahad

I can only think that the reason we can’t do
it is from Greg’s playpoint- they would have to code the support destruction cards with a priority of targets so if for example you have hixus and starfield in play which would it target?
From a players perspective if hitting the hixus would mean you can win next turn you would do it.... would Greg know this if starfield was prioritised in the order of to hit list? 
Would greg hit a multi shield support in the hope he can break your single shield claustrophobia?
from a players viewpoint if we work out that say Goggles get hit before hixus we could run both knowing our hixus is safer or if that hixus is hit before starfield we can be safeish  knowing our hixus will recur next turn as our starfield is safer....
support destruction is a minefield.... it always seems that ours hit the wrong support and Greg’s hits the one we really don’t want it to
I think that the move towards giving supports subtypes is good- maybe they could let us select a subtype when casting a destruction spell? Even then it probably wouldn’t take players long to learn which types are hit first and to be able to abuse the knowledge.....

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Rhasget

Avahad said:

I can only think that the reason we can’t do
it is from Greg’s playpoint- they would have to code the support destruction cards with a priority of targets so if for example you have hixus and starfield in play which would it target?
From a players perspective if hitting the hixus would mean you can win next turn you would do it.... would Greg know this if starfield was prioritised in the order of to hit list? 
Would greg hit a multi shield support in the hope he can break your single shield claustrophobia?
from a players viewpoint if we work out that say Goggles get hit before hixus we could run both knowing our hixus is safer or if that hixus is hit before starfield we can be safeish  knowing our hixus will recur next turn as our starfield is safer....
support destruction is a minefield.... it always seems that ours hit the wrong support and Greg’s hits the one we really don’t want it to
I think that the move towards giving supports subtypes is good- maybe they could let us select a subtype when casting a destruction spell? Even then it probably wouldn’t take players long to learn which types are hit first and to be able to abuse the knowledge.....

Isn't this how creature destruction is programmed?

Greg can't decide which creature to destroy from a game winning perspective.

If I have 2 creatures, a 2/2 with reach for example and a 10/10 creature with berserk/trample. He can win with his 10/10 vanilla creature if he destroys my blocker but he will destroy the 10/10 instead because he is programmed to do so (he was even worse before when he destroyed after card cost making Bolas very fun to fool).

Having a targeted support removal would mean the same kind of decisions in programming.

Snappyturtle

Did this stem out from the card Totally Lost? Because I can't figure out how to target a support with that card. Since the wording is that you get to target the creature or support if no creature(or one with hexproof) is present of your choosing.

This cards function alone shows us that they don't have the code to target a support currently. That would in it's self be an ordeal. But, wouldn't be overpowered as long as it remained the one and only card with the "target" attribute.

madwren

This functionality should have been in the game from the start.  Despite that, I have no confidence it ever will be.  Again, this is the disconnect between our desire for it to be a game of skill, and their design making it a game of luck.

What we really need is more cards like By Force or Release the Gremlins, or mass support removal that isn't tied to destroying all creatures as well. Cleansing Nova would be great if it allowed you to choose, for example.

FindingHeart8

madwren said:

This functionality should have been in the game from the start.  Despite that, I have no confidence it ever will be.  Again, this is the disconnect between our desire for it to be a game of skill, and their design making it a game of luck.

What we really need is more cards like By Force or Release the Gremlins, or mass support removal that isn't tied to destroying all creatures as well. Cleansing Nova would be great if it allowed you to choose, for example.

wereotter

Rhasget said:

In the big PvP events I always pick a PW with multiple options to destroy supports. Especially if there are 'Take x or less damage'.

But if there could be a targeted support removal option (should come with a heavier cost compared to the removal that exist now) it would be a nice balance.

Considering how cheap, even today, targeted exile and destroy on creatures is, I would disagree with this idea.

However, if they were to make it cost more to target, then it should not cost more than 7 mana to target since that's the cost to cast Murder, Vraska's Contempt, and Infernal Reckoning.

Rhasget

wereotter said:

Rhasget said:

In the big PvP events I always pick a PW with multiple options to destroy supports. Especially if there are 'Take x or less damage'.

But if there could be a targeted support removal option (should come with a heavier cost compared to the removal that exist now) it would be a nice balance.

Considering how cheap, even today, targeted exile and destroy on creatures is, I would disagree with this idea.

However, if they were to make it cost more to target, then it should not cost more than 7 mana to target since that's the cost to cast Murder, Vraska's Contempt, and Infernal Reckoning.

I would differentiate support and creature removal.

Creature removal is Targeted as norm and the cards that are not targeted are more expensive and only Rare+ rarity. 
Murder, at 7 mana, is pretty much the basic kill spell.
Many PWs can generate enough mana in one turn for it but the alternative options usually take two swaps to cast.

In support removal the norm is random removal and a few type specific removal (Demystify vs non-Land and Tectonic Rift vs Land).
The 'vanilla' removal option, Blessed Light cost 6 mana.
Most of these can be cast with one on-color swap so a more specific card shouldn't be as easy to cast.

In this environment I would place a card with ''Destroy Target Support' at 10 mana. If it's red it might not be that popular with several other options but a viable option.
In white it would fit pretty well with the other card costs. 
If this is a green card I would bump the cost to 13 mana, otherwise it would be the autopick since the other options already cost 10.

These are just my ideas on a way to balance it though.

Tilwin90

FindingHeart8 said:

madwren said:

This functionality should have been in the game from the start.  Despite that, I have no confidence it ever will be.  Again, this is the disconnect between our desire for it to be a game of skill, and their design making it a game of luck.

What we really need is more cards like By Force or Release the Gremlins, or mass support removal that isn't tied to destroying all creatures as well. Cleansing Nova would be great if it allowed you to choose, for example.

Cute reference... or you know.... you could also do this....

Thuran

Would also help a lot if they actually fixed Vraska, her first ability is currently bugged to target a random support, rather than the highest shield one, meaning stuff like star field has free reign .

Fortunately, we got rivers rebuke

Rhasget

Thuran said:

Would also help a lot if they actually fixed Vraska, her first ability is currently bugged to target a random support, rather than the highest shield one, meaning stuff like star field has free reign .

Fortunately, we got rivers rebuke, but only for nonland supports, which would be OK, but we don't have something that directly targets lands, which could be a big help vs these supports that always transform upon entering

In red you have Tectonic Rift that only targets lands actually.

wereotter

Rhasget said:

wereotter said:

Rhasget said:

In the big PvP events I always pick a PW with multiple options to destroy supports. Especially if there are 'Take x or less damage'.

But if there could be a targeted support removal option (should come with a heavier cost compared to the removal that exist now) it would be a nice balance.

Considering how cheap, even today, targeted exile and destroy on creatures is, I would disagree with this idea.

However, if they were to make it cost more to target, then it should not cost more than 7 mana to target since that's the cost to cast Murder, Vraska's Contempt, and Infernal Reckoning.

I would differentiate support and creature removal.

Creature removal is Targeted as norm and the cards that are not targeted are more expensive and only Rare+ rarity. 
Murder, at 7 mana, is pretty much the basic kill spell.
Many PWs can generate enough mana in one turn for it but the alternative options usually take two swaps to cast.

In support removal the norm is random removal and a few type specific removal (Demystify vs non-Land and Tectonic Rift vs Land).
The 'vanilla' removal option, Blessed Light cost 6 mana.
Most of these can be cast with one on-color swap so a more specific card shouldn't be as easy to cast.

In this environment I would place a card with ''Destroy Target Support' at 10 mana. If it's red it might not be that popular with several other options but a viable option.
In white it would fit pretty well with the other card costs. 
If this is a green card I would bump the cost to 13 mana, otherwise it would be the autopick since the other options already cost 10.

These are just my ideas on a way to balance it though.

Your example might be the norm for a white-based deck, but the real standard that support destruction should be based on is the one we see the most and is the base from Origins, Demolish which is 3 mana to destroy a random support. Smash to Smithereens is also 3 mana to destroy a random support, but it also hurts you to use. As such 7 mana to destroy a targeted support is still more than twice the required mana to destroy a random one. This is still a larger percentage and literal cost increase from Murder at 7 mana to Vona's Hunger at 10.

Mburn7

wereotter said:

Rhasget said:

wereotter said:

Rhasget said:

In the big PvP events I always pick a PW with multiple options to destroy supports. Especially if there are 'Take x or less damage'.

But if there could be a targeted support removal option (should come with a heavier cost compared to the removal that exist now) it would be a nice balance.

Considering how cheap, even today, targeted exile and destroy on creatures is, I would disagree with this idea.

However, if they were to make it cost more to target, then it should not cost more than 7 mana to target since that's the cost to cast Murder, Vraska's Contempt, and Infernal Reckoning.

I would differentiate support and creature removal.

Creature removal is Targeted as norm and the cards that are not targeted are more expensive and only Rare+ rarity. 
Murder, at 7 mana, is pretty much the basic kill spell.
Many PWs can generate enough mana in one turn for it but the alternative options usually take two swaps to cast.

In support removal the norm is random removal and a few type specific removal (Demystify vs non-Land and Tectonic Rift vs Land).
The 'vanilla' removal option, Blessed Light cost 6 mana.
Most of these can be cast with one on-color swap so a more specific card shouldn't be as easy to cast.

In this environment I would place a card with ''Destroy Target Support' at 10 mana. If it's red it might not be that popular with several other options but a viable option.
In white it would fit pretty well with the other card costs. 
If this is a green card I would bump the cost to 13 mana, otherwise it would be the autopick since the other options already cost 10.

These are just my ideas on a way to balance it though.

Your example might be the norm for a white-based deck, but the real standard that support destruction should be based on is the one we see the most and is the base from Origins, Demolish which is 3 mana to destroy a random support. Smash to Smithereens is also 3 mana to destroy a random support, but it also hurts you to use. As such 7 mana to destroy a targeted support is still more than twice the required mana to destroy a random one. This is still a larger percentage and literal cost increase from Murder at 7 mana to Vona's Hunger at 10.

I still don't get quite why you are equating support destruction to creature destruction.  I would argue that targeted support killing is much more useful than targeted creature killing, since there are usually more supports on the field that could get randomly targeted.  I think 10-12 mana is pretty reasonable for something like that, especially since that seems to be the cost for destroy support cards that aren't red.

FindingHeart8

Tilwin90 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

madwren said:

This functionality should have been in the game from the start.  Despite that, I have no confidence it ever will be.  Again, this is the disconnect between our desire for it to be a game of skill, and their design making it a game of luck.

What we really need is more cards like By Force or Release the Gremlins, or mass support removal that isn't tied to destroying all creatures as well. Cleansing Nova would be great if it allowed you to choose, for example.

Cute reference... or you know.... you could also do this....

Well Madwren already mentioned Cleansing Nova, that would be redundant.

wereotter

Mburn7 said:

wereotter said:

Rhasget said:

wereotter said:

Rhasget said:

In the big PvP events I always pick a PW with multiple options to destroy supports. Especially if there are 'Take x or less damage'.

But if there could be a targeted support removal option (should come with a heavier cost compared to the removal that exist now) it would be a nice balance.

Considering how cheap, even today, targeted exile and destroy on creatures is, I would disagree with this idea.

However, if they were to make it cost more to target, then it should not cost more than 7 mana to target since that's the cost to cast Murder, Vraska's Contempt, and Infernal Reckoning.

I would differentiate support and creature removal.

Creature removal is Targeted as norm and the cards that are not targeted are more expensive and only Rare+ rarity. 
Murder, at 7 mana, is pretty much the basic kill spell.
Many PWs can generate enough mana in one turn for it but the alternative options usually take two swaps to cast.

In support removal the norm is random removal and a few type specific removal (Demystify vs non-Land and Tectonic Rift vs Land).
The 'vanilla' removal option, Blessed Light cost 6 mana.
Most of these can be cast with one on-color swap so a more specific card shouldn't be as easy to cast.

In this environment I would place a card with ''Destroy Target Support' at 10 mana. If it's red it might not be that popular with several other options but a viable option.
In white it would fit pretty well with the other card costs. 
If this is a green card I would bump the cost to 13 mana, otherwise it would be the autopick since the other options already cost 10.

These are just my ideas on a way to balance it though.

Your example might be the norm for a white-based deck, but the real standard that support destruction should be based on is the one we see the most and is the base from Origins, Demolish which is 3 mana to destroy a random support. Smash to Smithereens is also 3 mana to destroy a random support, but it also hurts you to use. As such 7 mana to destroy a targeted support is still more than twice the required mana to destroy a random one. This is still a larger percentage and literal cost increase from Murder at 7 mana to Vona's Hunger at 10.

I still don't get quite why you are equating support destruction to creature destruction.  I would argue that targeted support killing is much more useful than targeted creature killing, since there are usually more supports on the field that could get randomly targeted.  I think 10-12 mana is pretty reasonable for something like that, especially since that seems to be the cost for destroy support cards that aren't red.

You're right, targeted creature kill is much MORE valuable than targeted support kill. Targeted creature kill means you get to take out at least a full third of your opponent's available creatures, supports, however, you can have as many in play as you can fit in your deck and your planeswalker can produce, meaning taking out a support takes out far less value from the field than taking out one creature.

Imagine the game was the other way around and every creature destroy spell was random, and your opponent could have 7 creatures in play. Targeted creature removal would be something we would all be begging for, not just because that's how the cards exist in their physical form, but because gameplay needs you to be able to take out the biggest threat. However, when your biggest threat in terms of supports manages to hide itself in the corner, or is able to create decoys for destruction, then being able to target it, and being able to do so efficiently, is a priority.

Mburn7

wereotter said:

Mburn7 said:

wereotter said:

Rhasget said:

wereotter said:

Rhasget said:

In the big PvP events I always pick a PW with multiple options to destroy supports. Especially if there are 'Take x or less damage'.

But if there could be a targeted support removal option (should come with a heavier cost compared to the removal that exist now) it would be a nice balance.

Considering how cheap, even today, targeted exile and destroy on creatures is, I would disagree with this idea.

However, if they were to make it cost more to target, then it should not cost more than 7 mana to target since that's the cost to cast Murder, Vraska's Contempt, and Infernal Reckoning.

I would differentiate support and creature removal.

Creature removal is Targeted as norm and the cards that are not targeted are more expensive and only Rare+ rarity. 
Murder, at 7 mana, is pretty much the basic kill spell.
Many PWs can generate enough mana in one turn for it but the alternative options usually take two swaps to cast.

In support removal the norm is random removal and a few type specific removal (Demystify vs non-Land and Tectonic Rift vs Land).
The 'vanilla' removal option, Blessed Light cost 6 mana.
Most of these can be cast with one on-color swap so a more specific card shouldn't be as easy to cast.

In this environment I would place a card with ''Destroy Target Support' at 10 mana. If it's red it might not be that popular with several other options but a viable option.
In white it would fit pretty well with the other card costs. 
If this is a green card I would bump the cost to 13 mana, otherwise it would be the autopick since the other options already cost 10.

These are just my ideas on a way to balance it though.

Your example might be the norm for a white-based deck, but the real standard that support destruction should be based on is the one we see the most and is the base from Origins, Demolish which is 3 mana to destroy a random support. Smash to Smithereens is also 3 mana to destroy a random support, but it also hurts you to use. As such 7 mana to destroy a targeted support is still more than twice the required mana to destroy a random one. This is still a larger percentage and literal cost increase from Murder at 7 mana to Vona's Hunger at 10.

I still don't get quite why you are equating support destruction to creature destruction.  I would argue that targeted support killing is much more useful than targeted creature killing, since there are usually more supports on the field that could get randomly targeted.  I think 10-12 mana is pretty reasonable for something like that, especially since that seems to be the cost for destroy support cards that aren't red.

You're right, targeted creature kill is much MORE valuable than targeted support kill. Targeted creature kill means you get to take out at least a full third of your opponent's available creatures, supports, however, you can have as many in play as you can fit in your deck and your planeswalker can produce, meaning taking out a support takes out far less value from the field than taking out one creature.

Thats actually my argument, with a different conclusion.  This is getting fun lol.

If all creature destruction was random (in the current game with a 3 creature max), it wouldn't be an issue the majority of the time.  First of all because often times there is only 1 creature out to kill, and secondly because even with a full board you have a 33.33% chance of getting the creature you want anyway.  Also, if your opponent has a full board taking any of the creatures out is usually beneficial, even if it isn't as beneficial as you would like.

With supports, there is no limit to how many can be on the field at once and they are much cheaper to cast (for the most part).  Additionally, there is often only 1 support that is a serious threat (Starfield, Settle, Hixus, Storm...ect) and the rest are just some combination of tokens and lands which you usually want to ignore.  The odds of randomly hitting the 1 support you want instead of the other useless ones is much lower.

By that logic, targeted support removal is much more valuable than targeted creature removal in terms of sheer numbers.  Now, you could say a creature poses a bigger threat than a support (which is true), but that is more related to the quantity of creature removal vs support removal (and mass creature removal vs mass support removal) that this particular argument of how much the upcharge should be for upgrading a random removal to a targeted removal

MTG_Mage

The way this game is designed there will never be targeted support destruction.
But we can have specific kind of support destruction. For instance, Demystify will destroy a non-land support. They did go through all supports and classify them, where possible, into the sub-types artifact, land, enchantment (there are sup-types to those such as artifact-equipment, and enchantment-aura/curse/saga). Unfortunately due to the way this game translates from paper magic, there are several supports that do not have a type (since they were converted from a spell or a creature -- one of those being Hixus) so those would not be targeted if all support destruction spells specified a sub-type. I think the best solution is to have the specific type support destruction spells be in every set and low cast (6 or less), and the generic destruction spells be about 2 mana higher. Sticking to color pie, red should only destroy artifacts and lands, while white can target non-land, and green any.

wereotter

MTG_Mage said:

The way this game is designed there will never be targeted support destruction.
But we can have specific kind of support destruction. For instance, Demystify will destroy a non-land support. They did go through all supports and classify them, where possible, into the sub-types artifact, land, enchantment (there are sup-types to those such as artifact-equipment, and enchantment-aura/curse/saga). Unfortunately due to the way this game translates from paper magic, there are several supports that do not have a type (since they were converted from a spell or a creature -- one of those being Hixus) so those would not be targeted if all support destruction spells specified a sub-type. I think the best solution is to have the specific type support destruction spells be in every set and low cast (6 or less), and the generic destruction spells be about 2 mana higher. Sticking to color pie, red should only destroy artifacts and lands, while white can target non-land, and green any.

Green doesn't really destroy lands that often. Though they'd need to get black support destruction.


Additionally, black creature kill spells at that point should be able to target Hixus. I wouldn't be opposed to this if it were added, especially as there need to be more options for dealing with the powerful land supports from Rivals of Ixalan.