Yes, Okoye IS awesome, and NO she does NOT need to be nerfed

JSP869

TLDR: She's not only not ridiculously OP on defense like Gambit was, she's not good on defense.

I realize that with her as currently my only 5* Champion I don't speak for the multiple 5* champion players, but since championing her I'm almost never not fighting 5* teams, I'm often running across duo 5* teams, and sometimes both 5*s are at 450 or higher. Yes, I can take them on and 9 times out of 10 I'll win, so yes, Okoye is awesome on offense, no question.

But when I come back a few hours later I'll have lost 9 out of 10 defensive matches, so she's really not good on defense. In fact I'll run across an Okoye team, usually with Medusa or XFDP, and I'll take them on knowing I'll win because it's easy enough to shut down both of those teams.

And that's why Okoye doesn't need to be nerfed.

I feel I have to post this because I've seen people saying she needs to be nerfed because she's so strong and everyone is using her so she's broken the game like Gambit did.

No, she hasn't.

Yes, I'm always using her but that's because she's my only 5* champion so I'd be stupid not to, but while I see Okoye teams occasionally, it's no more frequently than I see any other team, and I actually like seeing Okoye teams because I know it will be an easy win for me because she's not strong on defense.

Okoye does not need to be nerfed.

Edit: In the time it took me to write this, I lost three matches to duo 5* champion teams in Cold War. Panther w/ Thanos, DD w/ Spider-Man, and BB w/ Jessica. Nuff said.

Daredevil217

Now do one for Thor please. 

broll

I only read the TL;DR.  I agree she doesn't need to be nerfed.

However, she kicks my tinykitty when she's on defense regularly.  Not sure if I'm doing something wrong.  Gambits issue IMO wasn't so much that he was strong on defense, but that he was strong on defense and he was hard to be counter without also having him to be the counter.  I suspect there's something I should be doing to specifically counter her, but it's been much easier to skip her than figure that out.  

JSP869

Daredevil217 said:

Now do one for Thor please. 

I forget who his partners have been but I've already taken down several Thor teams with my Okoye team. I think he was running with Daredevil at least once. If you're playing smart against Thor he goes down easily enough. That's not to say he's not strong on offense, because he is, especially if you're playing smart with him. And on the flipside, as long as you're playing smart against him, he can be beaten.

Even those three duo 5* champion teams that I listed at the end of my post? I hit them rather than skipped them, and I won all three matches. I beat a champion PanThos team. (Is that really how it's spelled?) Yes, they were all barely above 450, but I still took them down. 

I was really unhappy when they announced the Gambit nerf (so unhappy that I said some things I shouldn't have, and then I wasn't allowed to say anything for a couple of weeks) but I had Gambit at 4/4/4 at the time so I was really looking forward to making him my first 5* champion. And while I think the nerf was a little too much, I also believe it changed the game for the better because I'm seeing a lot more variety among the teams I'm facing now. I'm even seeing Phoenix on a few teams and I almost never saw Phoenix.

But it doesn't matter who I see I'm almost always taking them on, and for the most part I'm prevailing. Yes, I lose a match here & there, but I'm probably only losing 1 in 10, if that many. I even went to 40+ wins in the MEHulk event and I didn't need his cover because I already have him championed, too, but I was just having so much fun...oh. See? That's new. Well, it's not new, but it has been a very long time since I've actually had that much fun playing MPQ, especially in PvP. @Daiches would tell you that I'm not a PvP guy (my Alliance is PvE focused) but I've actually been having fun in PvP with my champion Okoye.

JSP869

broll said:

I only read the TL;DR.  I agree she doesn't need to be nerfed.

However, she kicks my tinykitty when she's on defense regularly.  Not sure if I'm doing something wrong.  Gambits issue IMO wasn't so much that he was strong on defense, but that he was strong on defense and he was hard to be counter without also having him to be the counter.  I suspect there's something I should be doing to specifically counter her, but it's been much easier to skip her than figure that out.  

Focus on Okoye while denying Yellow AP, and Team-Up AP, which I know is difficult because the AI seems to prioritize Team-Up AP. If they do get Team-Up AP, move Okoye to the back so she nibbles on their stash while you beat up on someone else. Admittedly with a champion Okoye of my own I'm "fighting fire with fire", and so I don't actually mind if they get some Team-Up AP, especially if they're running Medusa, because it means 4* DP's X-Enforcer is much more likely to proc. So I just continue beating on Okoye while denying Yellow so she can't heal.

broll

JSP869 said:

broll said:

I only read the TL;DR.  I agree she doesn't need to be nerfed.

However, she kicks my tinykitty when she's on defense regularly.  Not sure if I'm doing something wrong.  Gambits issue IMO wasn't so much that he was strong on defense, but that he was strong on defense and he was hard to be counter without also having him to be the counter.  I suspect there's something I should be doing to specifically counter her, but it's been much easier to skip her than figure that out.  

Focus on Okoye while denying Yellow AP, and Team-Up AP, which I know is difficult because the AI seems to prioritize Team-Up AP. If they do get Team-Up AP, move Okoye to the back so she nibbles on their stash while you beat up on someone else. Admittedly with a champion Okoye of my own I'm "fighting fire with fire", and so I don't actually mind if they get some Team-Up AP, especially if they're running Medusa, because it means 4* DP's X-Enforcer is much more likely to proc. So I just continue beating on Okoye while denying Yellow so she can't heal.

Yeah that's probably my problem then.  None of my 5* champs have a yellow active power.  BP is the only one that I ever need to match yellow for.  And I've never liked using TUs that much so I usually ignore them.  I typically try and get her first and/or stun her, however if she's paired with Thor (more often then not she is) he ends up nuking me with green right around the time I get her down.  If I don't focus her and focus Thor I usually lose someone and end up on a dps treadmill I struggle to keep up with.

EDIT:  I went back and looked and I actually have 2 5* champs with active yellows.  LumberCap, who is rarely used and his yellow is useless unless you plan on someone dying.  Thor, but his yellow is usually lowest priority for me.  I'll take bring him and putting more of a yellow focus into advisement.  Having extra shield tiles would certainly be beneficial against Okoye/Thor, it just hurts speed, but it's worth trying to see how it goes.  Thanks for the tip.

DISCLAIMER TO D3 & ANYONE ELSE:  I'm not advocating for a nerf in any way shape or form.  Just discussing that she is difficult to beat for my roster/playstyle.  

hopper1979

People want her nurfed?  I will fight her before JJ or 5Thor every day of the week, she is a top 5-star character but no way near to game breaking like Gambit.  Leave her alone.  My biggest complaint about her is she should not be a 5 star (she is a D level power level at best in the Marvel Universe) but that is irreverent to the discussion.  

Dormammu

JSP869 said:

Okoye does not need to be nerfed.

Okay. You talked me into it.

I actually haven't read anyone calling for Okoye's head, so I'm not sure it's even an issue. Rather, praise for her has been pretty universal about what a useful, well-balanced 5-star she is who is terrific to play while at the same time (as you said) entirely beatable when playing against her.

When we start seeing PLZ NERF OKOYE threads in General Discussion, then I'll start to worry.

Anon

To beat Okoye, do you need to bring your own Okoye?

No?

Then she doesn't need a Nerf.

Pongie

To me, Okoye feels a lot like my first 5* champion, Hawkeye. I was able to beat any team (even 550 5*s) when paired with Coulson. On offence, this team was really good but like Okoye, it has nothing in defence (except for being annoyingly slow). 

Okoye is definitely more flexible compared to Hawkeye. She pairs well with any one that deals damage. But I agree that she does not warrant a nerf

CaptainPunchy

I'm going to go against the grain here and say she does need a couple of minor edits, but not full-on game changing nerf like they did with Gambit (which I think they overdid). I'm not in the majority above that use her. I've only managed to grab a single cover. But speaking as someone that has to fight her damn near every PvP, she's frustrating as hell. Not impossible, but using Okoye has no strategy. It's self-working, which is the exact reason Gambit was nerfed.

Don't get me wrong, I think her passive support is novel and pretty awesome. My complaint are the boosts to passives, most notably Bolt, Strange and Thanos. Those IMHO shouldn't be boosted. I think she'd be still really formidable and useful without this trait, and would still allow for countdown or repeater tiles to benefit from the boost, like SS and BP (JJ's trap tiles could go either way).

My only other beef is that she seems to have way to much HP for the character. I mean, she has over 10% higher HP than ThorG, which makes no sense. 

JSP869

CaptainPunchy said:

My only other beef is that she seems to have way to much HP for the character. I mean, she has over 10% higher HP than ThorG, which makes no sense. 

Not really disagreeing with anything you've said. Although I don't see her that often. I haven't been tracking/counting my opponents but I'd be lying if I said I face one character more than any other. I definitely do run across Okoye from time to time, but I also run into almost every other 5* now, too. I even see champion OMLs and Gambits. But that's just my personal experience, it may very well be that you're often running into Okoye. My personal experience does not refute your own in any way.

Re: the high HP I think that's intentional as unlike many of the other 5* characters she only has one offensive power and one defensive power...and a nasty passive in Black, of course. She also has a high match damage (I think) compared to many other characters so she's often tanking a majority of the colors and so she's also taking a lot of nukes from the AI team. So she needs that high health to survive long enough for her teammates to do their thing, or long enough to get the yellow and/or red to fire her own powers.

And that's also her weakness. Deny Yellow and she cannot heal herself. Deny Team-Up AP, or keep her at the back in case her team does get any, and her passive is neutered. Also something to keep in mind is the AI does not play tactically as far as Okoye is concerned, so if it gets enough Team-Up AP it will fire its Team-Up power, again neutering her passive.

I know I'm probably somewhat biased by bringing an Okoye to an Okoye fight, but again she's my sole 5* champion and so I'd be an idiot not to use her given that I'm almost always fighting other champion 5*s.

Having very briefly had a fully-covered Gambit (got my 13th cover right after they nerfed him) Okoye is not quite the EZ-mode that Gambit was, because she doesn't shut down the other team like he does. I also don't fear running into an Okoye team, not even Okoye and JJ, not like I did with Gambit teams. Yes, she is very strong on offense. The fact that I can take on duo 5* champion teams, and win, speaks to how strong she is, but she's not that great on defense. Of course I'm also running her with 4*s which don't scare multi-champion 5* players, so that's not really a solid litmus test either

658_2

Okoye is a brilliant design.  Losing a tu when she’s not in the front is a massive limiting factor for the AI.  She’s pretty much perfectly balanced.  Being able to use just about anybody on my roster with her is what makes her so fun.  I went to 75 wins in sim last season using all sorts of goofball teams.

sinnerjfl

She could use some tweaks.

Her black should not affect passives, that makes this ability way too strong because you need 0 AP to benefit from it.

The black condition of losing TU AP if she's not in front is hardly a penalty since she has very high match damage and high TU damage, she's pretty much always in front if you want her there.

She heals a bit too much for the low cost of 7 AP.

JSP869

Re: her black affecting passives, it's not correct to say you need 0 AP to benefit from it. You do need AP, you need Team-Up AP. Because if you don't have any Team-Up AP her black will not boost passive powers. And the AI loves to match Team-Up AP, almost more so than any other color, and so I'm often fighting over the Team-Up AP.

Now I could be reading your response incorrectly but it appears you're not seeing the minus-Team-Up AP penalty and her heals in the same manner that I am. I don't see those as negatives when I'm playing her, I see those as counters/weaknesses when I'm playing against her.

If I'm playing against Okoye I almost always wait to fire my Yellow until after the AI Okoye has a chance to fire hers.  I'm also going to be grabbing as much Team-Up AP as I can, partly because it helps me deal extra damage, and partly because it hinders the AI Okoye's passive while minimizing her heal when she finally does fire Yellow.

And if the AI does get Team-Up AP, I'll move their Okoye to the back (assuming she's not the last woman standing) and pummel someone else for a few turns until Okoye has eaten their Team-Up AP. Or maybe I don't need to. Remember, the AI does not play optimally, so if it gets enough Team-Up AP it will spend it to fire its Team-Up power, so if I see they just got enough Team-Up AP to fire their Team-Up power, I'll just leave Okoye in front and the AI will spend all its Team-Up AP on its next turn.

I'm not arguing that she's not strong. She absolutely is. With just her and XFDP I've taken on and defeated so many duo 5* champion teams (albeit 450s) that I don't skip any team anymore unless they have a high level 5*, like that 540 Loki who's popped up twice now. He gets skipped. But if its two 450s 5* champions, it doesn't matter if it's Panther & Thanos, or Black Bolt & Gambit, or Thor & Daredevil, or Okoye & Jessica Jones, or any other combination; I'm taking them on, because I know if the Board doesn't overly favor the AI that I can beat them.

But it's the very things that make Okoye so strong that are also her weaknesses, and so she is very easy to counter if you just play tactically...and if the Board doesn't favor the AI

sinnerjfl

I'm not arguing she's easy to counter, she's very easy to beat.

On offense she just feels too strong with that crazy passive, a very strong heal and high match damage.
Her "weaknesses" are not really detrimental at all and there's a reason you're seeing her everywhere in PVP.

Just because she's easy to beat on defense doesn't mean she could not use some tweaks.

Daredevil217

CaptainPunchy said:

But speaking as someone that has to fight her damn near every PvP, she's frustrating as hell. Not impossible, but using Okoye has no strategy. It's self-working, which is the exact reason Gambit was nerfed.

Please show me where this was stated? (hint: it wasn’t). The “exact reason” Gambit was nerfed is as follows:

“Gambit is now seen as a more or less mandatory inclusion for players’ teams... When you're forced to play with or against a character over and over again, things get stale.” - Brigby

Okoye is not mandatory. Thor is not mandatory. Right now we have a meta where no character is mandatory and anyone can beat anyone. Sure some get played because they are faster (Thor) or more sustainable without heath packs (Okoye) or the scariest on defense (Jessica) but none of these characters need to be nerfed because they are the best at what they do (poor Logan). There will always be a “best”.  Nerf it and there will be a new “best” everyone will play and people will cry for that to be nerfed too. The meta will always be stale once people settle on what is the best. I’ve been saying this time and again and it keeps coming to fruition. 

“When reports came in that he was still at the top of the heap, this wasn't initially cause for concern - there's always going to be a "Best" character” - Brigby

JSP869

Honestly, I'm really not seeing Okoye any more than I'm seeing any other 5* champion. That is one good thing about the Gambit nerf, I'm seeing a much greater variety of 5* champions now. I'm even seeing Green Goblin, Doc Oc, and OML, and I think (?) they're all low tier Champions.

I'll try to track which 5*s I run into (and which ones beat up on me in Iron Spidey's PvP. I want his Blue cover (he's still only partially covered) so I absolutely will be going for the 40 wins there.

Dormammu

Reading through this thread I am reminded of how difficult it is to please us, the players. We want to win so we want strong characters that allow us to do so with regularity. But if those characters are too strong in the wrong ways they can be a hindrance on defense and jeopardize our ability to win with regularity. We complain when characters are too weak and we complain when they are too strong.

Okoye seems like the perfect balance: strong on offense, weak on defense.

Why are we discussing a nerf? Should we make her weak on offense too? That's asinine. The 5-star tier doesn't need another Banner or Ock.

MarvelMatch

Okoye is my go-to character. Ever since I got her,I just can't go back to my old fights. While she can't survive a Loki on steroids (as I call it!) ,she and Dark Avengers Bullseye are a match made in MPQ 

MPQMastery

Agreed definitely. And it’s exactly for the defensive point. She is full on charge ahead and damage, and her abilities aren’t that cheap sadly, but nerfing her would be a mistake.