Level 456 Loki in a week. How??

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Comments

  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    beyonderbub said:
    And above is why I don’t like to hoard. You delay getting roster to the point where champ levels spit out better rewards.
    Yeah, this is the downside to hoarding. Rather than slow roster growth, you get delayed spurts of growth. I still think it's worth it, though. Why waste resources on rubbish like Wasp? I like to think hoarding enables the player to make more of an impact by recruiting characters who can be difference makers.

    I remember the day Okoye entered the latest three. Hoards across the world were simultaneously being depleted. All of those players were happy to avoid Archangel and Chrome Rider for a shot at JJ and Okoye.
  • beyonderbub
    beyonderbub Posts: 661 Critical Contributor
    Dormammu said:
     Why waste resources on rubbish like Wasp? I like to think hoarding enables the player to make more of an impact by recruiting characters who can be difference makers..
    Pokemon gotta catch em all mentality. Also its great to have a champed and boosted 5Wasp (or Doc Ock, Banner, any other weaker ranked 5s) for the PVEs where they are essential just for the match damage with America's criticals for SCL9. I have no idea how 5* Black Widow works or who she is best paired with (nor have I ever chosen her on a PvP team) but I'm using her in TaT now to just brute force through subevents in record time.

    I like the idea of hoarding at face value IF it guaranteed the desired outcome worth busting your hoard for; however, we have seen that while RNG sometimes does "bless" some pullers but we also read about the folks busting their 500-700CP hoard and getting zero desired 5* covers (and quit thread soon follows). I don't see MPQ ever setting up a system that will guarantee 5*s pulls (like "streakbusters" mentioned above) because that just gives the advantage automatically to those who can acquire LTs and CPs faster than others and will just widen the current divide in roster strengths. 

    The danger in hoarding and chasing the new meta (difference makers if you prefer) can be seen in the recent cautionary tale of Gambit. Folks who hoarded and built up him up dominated with a Gambit in the level 475-530 but post nerfbat, found it a struggle because all resources had been spent chasing him and fortifying him while ignoring the rest of their roster. Pull consistently and you get what you get; odds are the roster will build more evenly than if you blow hoards on just the "good" characters. Ultimately, to each their own. Personally I subscribe to a variant between the two styles. I will hoard CP to unload on a store like the recent Loki one where I like the other 5s offered as well (win-win regardless of any 5 pulled) but I will pull Latest Legends tokens as I earn them.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,277 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
    beyonderbub said:
    Bowgentle said:

    Champ rewards for 4s ramp up enormously past 330.
      All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress.
    The pulls are not predetermined as in character and cover color. It's only the random number that's predetermined.

    By this I mean imagine that the random number for a pull is 1-1000 and currently there are 4 characters in a tier. Each one gets 250 numbers. So imagine your next pull number is 220 which would get you character 1 (who gets numbers 1-250). Then a new character is added so now each character then gets 200 numbers. If you then open a token you'll get character 2 (who has numbers 201-400) rather than character 1 which you would have gotten if you opened prior to the new character being added.

    It must work this way because players like me who hoard and then open tokens do immediately get new characters who have been added to the token list. If the character + color was predetermined then we'd have to flush out X number of pulls before we got a newly added character and that would cause a riot.

    So hoarding technically *changes* what you get when you pull due to dilution.

    KGB
  • beyonderbub
    beyonderbub Posts: 661 Critical Contributor
    KGB said:
    beyonderbub said:
    Bowgentle said:

    Champ rewards for 4s ramp up enormously past 330.
      All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress.
    The pulls are not predetermined as in character and cover color. It's only the random number that's predetermined.

    By this I mean imagine that the random number for a pull is 1-1000 and currently there are 4 characters in a tier. Each one gets 250 numbers. So imagine your next pull number is 220 which would get you character 1 (who gets numbers 1-250). Then a new character is added so now each character then gets 200 numbers. If you then open a token you'll get character 2 (who has numbers 201-400) rather than character 1 which you would have gotten if you opened prior to the new character being added.

    It must work this way because players like me who hoard and then open tokens do immediately get new characters who have been added to the token list. If the character + color was predetermined then we'd have to flush out X number of pulls before we got a newly added character and that would cause a riot.

    So hoarding technically *changes* what you get when you pull due to dilution.

    KGB
    Quibbling over semantics. It will change during transition periods when they add new characters. However, if you are due to pull a 5* Wasp on your next Latest Legends token, there is no way to change that until some new 5* moves into Latest and possibly rotates her out of her spot, or "number" as you put it above. In that sense it is predetermined. You can't change the 4*s you are going to get either, unless you wait for the next 4*s to be introduced to the token pool tp rotate the predetermined 4*s out of their spots as well. You can hoard and wait if you prefer but unless you are packing max champs at every tier, you are "delaying" your roster progress by doing so. 
  • Talus9952
    Talus9952 Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
    KGB said:
    beyonderbub said:
    Bowgentle said:

    Champ rewards for 4s ramp up enormously past 330.
      All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress.
    The pulls are not predetermined as in character and cover color. It's only the random number that's predetermined.

    By this I mean imagine that the random number for a pull is 1-1000 and currently there are 4 characters in a tier. Each one gets 250 numbers. So imagine your next pull number is 220 which would get you character 1 (who gets numbers 1-250). Then a new character is added so now each character then gets 200 numbers. If you then open a token you'll get character 2 (who has numbers 201-400) rather than character 1 which you would have gotten if you opened prior to the new character being added.

    It must work this way because players like me who hoard and then open tokens do immediately get new characters who have been added to the token list. If the character + color was predetermined then we'd have to flush out X number of pulls before we got a newly added character and that would cause a riot.

    So hoarding technically *changes* what you get when you pull due to dilution.

    KGB
    LT pulls are pre-determined.  Not sure about other tokens.  Say you pull 100 latest legendary tokens, but your game didn't save correctly.  So you pull those 100 tokens again, you will get the exact same result.  Of course, the pre-determined list changes whenever a character is added or removed.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    beyonderbub said:
    KGB said:
    beyonderbub said:
    Bowgentle said:

    Champ rewards for 4s ramp up enormously past 330.
      All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress.
    The pulls are not predetermined as in character and cover color. It's only the random number that's predetermined.

    By this I mean imagine that the random number for a pull is 1-1000 and currently there are 4 characters in a tier. Each one gets 250 numbers. So imagine your next pull number is 220 which would get you character 1 (who gets numbers 1-250). Then a new character is added so now each character then gets 200 numbers. If you then open a token you'll get character 2 (who has numbers 201-400) rather than character 1 which you would have gotten if you opened prior to the new character being added.

    It must work this way because players like me who hoard and then open tokens do immediately get new characters who have been added to the token list. If the character + color was predetermined then we'd have to flush out X number of pulls before we got a newly added character and that would cause a riot.

    So hoarding technically *changes* what you get when you pull due to dilution.

    KGB
    Quibbling over semantics. It will change during transition periods when they add new characters. However, if you are due to pull a 5* Wasp on your next Latest Legends token, there is no way to change that until some new 5* moves into Latest and possibly rotates her out of her spot, or "number" as you put it above. In that sense it is predetermined. You can't change the 4*s you are going to get either, unless you wait for the next 4*s to be introduced to the token pool tp rotate the predetermined 4*s out of their spots as well. You can hoard and wait if you prefer but unless you are packing max champs at every tier, you are "delaying" your roster progress by doing so. 
    He's not quibbling over semantics...  He's explaining that what you said before and in the above is wrong.  

    Let's expand what he said.

    Player A pulls every pull he can from latest when he get it.
    Player B hoards for long periods of time.

    Let's assume both players earn about 2 pulls per day.  Over the 6 weeks between 5* characters change they would each get 84 pulls.  Let's assume standard distribution, meaning each player get's exactly 12 5*s (4 for each).

    Let's also assume the RNG for each is the same, so the random numbers used for characters pulls are identical for the entire period.

    Player A gets:
    4 LumberCap
    4 Okoye
    4 Wasp

    Player B get's noting because he hoards.  If he pops his hoard as soon as the new character comes he get's
    0 LumberCap 
    4 Okoye
    4 Wasp
    4 Unannounced character.

    Now let's expand that over the 3 6 week cycles so triple all pull numbers.

    Player A now gets:
    4 LumberCap
    8 Okoye
    12 Wasp
    8 Unannounced character 1
    4 Unannounced character 2

    Player B (assume he opens the day Unannounced character 3 enters get):
    0 Lumber
    0 Okoye
    0 Wasp
    12 Unannounced character 1
    12 Unannounced character 2
    12 Unannounced character 3

    Doesn't look the same to me....
  • Blindman13
    Blindman13 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    beyonderbub said:
    KGB said:
    beyonderbub said:
    Bowgentle said:

    Champ rewards for 4s ramp up enormously past 330.
      All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress.
    The pulls are not predetermined as in character and cover color. It's only the random number that's predetermined.

    By this I mean imagine that the random number for a pull is 1-1000 and currently there are 4 characters in a tier. Each one gets 250 numbers. So imagine your next pull number is 220 which would get you character 1 (who gets numbers 1-250). Then a new character is added so now each character then gets 200 numbers. If you then open a token you'll get character 2 (who has numbers 201-400) rather than character 1 which you would have gotten if you opened prior to the new character being added.

    It must work this way because players like me who hoard and then open tokens do immediately get new characters who have been added to the token list. If the character + color was predetermined then we'd have to flush out X number of pulls before we got a newly added character and that would cause a riot.

    So hoarding technically *changes* what you get when you pull due to dilution.

    KGB
    Quibbling over semantics. It will change during transition periods when they add new characters. However, if you are due to pull a 5* Wasp on your next Latest Legends token, there is no way to change that until some new 5* moves into Latest and possibly rotates her out of her spot, or "number" as you put it above. In that sense it is predetermined. You can't change the 4*s you are going to get either, unless you wait for the next 4*s to be introduced to the token pool tp rotate the predetermined 4*s out of their spots as well. You can hoard and wait if you prefer but unless you are packing max champs at every tier, you are "delaying" your roster progress by doing so. 
    He's not quibbling over semantics...  He's explaining that what you said before and in the above is wrong.  

    Let's expand what he said.

    Player A pulls every pull he can from latest when he get it.
    Player B hoards for long periods of time.

    Let's assume both players earn about 2 pulls per day.  Over the 6 weeks between 5* characters change they would each get 84 pulls.  Let's assume standard distribution, meaning each player get's exactly 12 5*s (4 for each).

    Let's also assume the RNG for each is the same, so the random numbers used for characters pulls are identical for the entire period.

    Player A gets:
    4 LumberCap
    4 Okoye
    4 Wasp

    Player B get's noting because he hoards.  If he pops his hoard as soon as the new character comes he get's
    0 LumberCap 
    4 Okoye
    4 Wasp
    4 Unannounced character.

    Now let's expand that over the 3 6 week cycles so triple all pull numbers.

    Player A now gets:
    4 LumberCap
    8 Okoye
    12 Wasp
    8 Unannounced character 1
    4 Unannounced character 2

    Player B (assume he opens the day Unannounced character 3 enters get):
    0 Lumber
    0 Okoye
    0 Wasp
    12 Unannounced character 1
    12 Unannounced character 2
    12 Unannounced character 3

    Doesn't look the same to me....
    OK, but if you expand that out and Player A pulls everything right away and Player B hoards and pulls once a cycle, they eventually both have 12 of every character. The only real benefit of hoarding is being able to choose to skip a 5*. That';s not really a benefit either because you will eventually need to have everyone for their essentials.
  • beyonderbub
    beyonderbub Posts: 661 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    He's not quibbling over semantics...  He's explaining that what you said before and in the above is wrong.  

    Hypotheticals aside, my initial point stands: if you are meant to draw a 5*  on your next token, it will remain a 5* pull - THAT is pre-determined. As long as they don't introduce new 5* characters, it will be the same 5* character. When they intro a new 5*, then the rotation will shift and you will pull a different 5*, but it's still a 5*.

    You can hoard if you want and pull once a 6-week cycle or hold it for 18-weeks for the next 3 5*s, you WILL BE delaying your roster progress in doing so and in the player B examples you post above, you will be hurting your progress by forcing yourself by choice to chase "Lumber, Okoye and Wasp" in the even more diluted Classics pool.

    I apologize for not expressly spelling out my intention with the initial statement: "All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress"
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    beyonderbub said:
    broll said:
    He's not quibbling over semantics...  He's explaining that what you said before and in the above is wrong.  

    Hypotheticals aside, my initial point stands: if you are meant to draw a 5*  on your next token, it will remain a 5* pull - THAT is pre-determined. As long as they don't introduce new 5* characters, it will be the same 5* character. When they intro a new 5*, then the rotation will shift and you will pull a different 5*, but it's still a 5*.

    You can hoard if you want and pull once a 6-week cycle or hold it for 18-weeks for the next 3 5*s, you WILL BE delaying your roster progress in doing so and in the player B examples you post above, you will be hurting your progress by forcing yourself by choice to chase "Lumber, Okoye and Wasp" in the even more diluted Classics pool.

    I apologize for not expressly spelling out my intention with the initial statement: "All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress"
    Beyond is spot on with this.  All pulls are set to be a 4 or 5* incudlng BHs. This is a known thing since the first (can’t use the term) and this was fixed due to the (can’t talk about it) that happened.  Just the way it is.  All vaults are like this.  Classics, Latest ot Special.  Doesn’t matter.  
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    beyonderbub said:
    broll said:
    He's not quibbling over semantics...  He's explaining that what you said before and in the above is wrong.  

    Hypotheticals aside, my initial point stands: if you are meant to draw a 5*  on your next token, it will remain a 5* pull - THAT is pre-determined. As long as they don't introduce new 5* characters, it will be the same 5* character. When they intro a new 5*, then the rotation will shift and you will pull a different 5*, but it's still a 5*.

    You can hoard if you want and pull once a 6-week cycle or hold it for 18-weeks for the next 3 5*s, you WILL BE delaying your roster progress in doing so and in the player B examples you post above, you will be hurting your progress by forcing yourself by choice to chase "Lumber, Okoye and Wasp" in the even more diluted Classics pool.

    I apologize for not expressly spelling out my intention with the initial statement: "All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress"
    Yes I was never disputing that 4* / 5* rate would change. However your last statement is still in my mind incorrect. If in my above example player B hoarded for a riciulous period of time. Let’s say 6 years simply for easy math with 6 weeks.  Player As roster would progress to having 12 covers per 5*. Player B would get would get 208 covers for 3 characters and be able to max champ all 3. That’s drastically different roster progression.   The main point I was trying to make is hoarding does alter roster progression. The longer the hoard the more drastically. So saying “so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress" is not correct. 
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Blindman13 said:
    broll said:
    beyonderbub said:
    KGB said:
    beyonderbub said:
    Bowgentle said:

    Champ rewards for 4s ramp up enormously past 330.
      All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress.
    The pulls are not predetermined as in character and cover color. It's only the random number that's predetermined.

    By this I mean imagine that the random number for a pull is 1-1000 and currently there are 4 characters in a tier. Each one gets 250 numbers. So imagine your next pull number is 220 which would get you character 1 (who gets numbers 1-250). Then a new character is added so now each character then gets 200 numbers. If you then open a token you'll get character 2 (who has numbers 201-400) rather than character 1 which you would have gotten if you opened prior to the new character being added.

    It must work this way because players like me who hoard and then open tokens do immediately get new characters who have been added to the token list. If the character + color was predetermined then we'd have to flush out X number of pulls before we got a newly added character and that would cause a riot.

    So hoarding technically *changes* what you get when you pull due to dilution.

    KGB
    Quibbling over semantics. It will change during transition periods when they add new characters. However, if you are due to pull a 5* Wasp on your next Latest Legends token, there is no way to change that until some new 5* moves into Latest and possibly rotates her out of her spot, or "number" as you put it above. In that sense it is predetermined. You can't change the 4*s you are going to get either, unless you wait for the next 4*s to be introduced to the token pool tp rotate the predetermined 4*s out of their spots as well. You can hoard and wait if you prefer but unless you are packing max champs at every tier, you are "delaying" your roster progress by doing so. 
    He's not quibbling over semantics...  He's explaining that what you said before and in the above is wrong.  

    Let's expand what he said.

    Player A pulls every pull he can from latest when he get it.
    Player B hoards for long periods of time.

    Let's assume both players earn about 2 pulls per day.  Over the 6 weeks between 5* characters change they would each get 84 pulls.  Let's assume standard distribution, meaning each player get's exactly 12 5*s (4 for each).

    Let's also assume the RNG for each is the same, so the random numbers used for characters pulls are identical for the entire period.

    Player A gets:
    4 LumberCap
    4 Okoye
    4 Wasp

    Player B get's noting because he hoards.  If he pops his hoard as soon as the new character comes he get's
    0 LumberCap 
    4 Okoye
    4 Wasp
    4 Unannounced character.

    Now let's expand that over the 3 6 week cycles so triple all pull numbers.

    Player A now gets:
    4 LumberCap
    8 Okoye
    12 Wasp
    8 Unannounced character 1
    4 Unannounced character 2

    Player B (assume he opens the day Unannounced character 3 enters get):
    0 Lumber
    0 Okoye
    0 Wasp
    12 Unannounced character 1
    12 Unannounced character 2
    12 Unannounced character 3

    Doesn't look the same to me....
    OK, but if you expand that out and Player A pulls everything right away and Player B hoards and pulls once a cycle, they eventually both have 12 of every character. The only real benefit of hoarding is being able to choose to skip a 5*. That';s not really a benefit either because you will eventually need to have everyone for their essentials.
    Yes if a hoarder opened their hoard every cycle it would be no different than pulling as they come. 

    I disagree that the only benifit is skipping 5*s. In my example the non hoarder never gets 13 covers. That’s certainly not optimal. Someone who got less pulls on average would be worse off. Hoarding also let’s you choose who to get lots of champ levels for (if they hoard long enough). The trade off might be skipping characters but that doesn’t mean that’s the only benifit (or that it’s even a benifit at all, if could be a negative side effect depending on your point of view and who you skipped). 
  • beyonderbub
    beyonderbub Posts: 661 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2018
    broll said:
    beyonderbub said:
    broll said:
    He's not quibbling over semantics...  He's explaining that what you said before and in the above is wrong.  

    Hypotheticals aside, my initial point stands: if you are meant to draw a 5*  on your next token, it will remain a 5* pull - THAT is pre-determined. As long as they don't introduce new 5* characters, it will be the same 5* character. When they intro a new 5*, then the rotation will shift and you will pull a different 5*, but it's still a 5*.

    You can hoard if you want and pull once a 6-week cycle or hold it for 18-weeks for the next 3 5*s, you WILL BE delaying your roster progress in doing so and in the player B examples you post above, you will be hurting your progress by forcing yourself by choice to chase "Lumber, Okoye and Wasp" in the even more diluted Classics pool.

    I apologize for not expressly spelling out my intention with the initial statement: "All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress"
    Yes I was never disputing that 4* / 5* rate would change. However your last statement is still in my mind incorrect. If in my above example player B hoarded for a riciulous period of time. Let’s say 6 years simply for easy math with 6 weeks.  Player As roster would progress to having 12 covers per 5*. Player B would get would get 208 covers for 3 characters and be able to max champ all 3. That’s drastically different roster progression.   The main point I was trying to make is hoarding does alter roster progression. The longer the hoard the more drastically. So saying “so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress" is not correct. 
    You and I fundamentally disagree on what is roster progression then. I would rather have many baby champ 5*s (2/mo x 6 years  ~ 144 5* champs) that I use daily in that time to gain rewards/excel at pve and pvp than disappearing from the competitive scene, stalled at the same level, watching everyone move past me while I hoard for 6 years only to show up with 3 max champed 5s at the end of that.

     Hoarding denies you chances at champ rewards like more LTs or more CP to pull potential 5s or move champ 4s forward. That is the “delay” I’m talking about. Whether it’s for a month or 6 years, it stalls your chances at progressing your roster via champ rewards (tokens,cp, xp for iso to level your toons). It can be beneficial in short durations only if you have already gotten your current 5s stable where you want it to be (for me that’s champed and earning rewards) and saving up for next release. 

    The other issue with hoarding is that results are not guaranteed when you bust that hoard. The longer you wait and the worse RNG treats you ( for example, 5000-10000 cp blown to attempt champing 3 Latest and you get no 5s or get enough 5s to cover the weakest of the trio up to level 475 but only a few covers for the other 2), the more inclined you are to quit the game after others have preached to you that hoarding was the solution to getting champ 5s. Meanwhile the person pulling daily, even if they don’t pull any 5s, now has a ton of 4s in the 320+ range giving out high level rewards and enjoying that roster daily in pve/pvp.  Which player is better off? That’s a matter of opinion. Not correct or incorrect. 
  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,412 Chairperson of the Boards
    beyonderbub said:

    I will hoard CP to unload on a store like the recent Loki one where I like the other 5s offered as well (win-win regardless of any 5 pulled) but I will pull Latest Legends tokens as I earn them.
    This is the first time I heard of this strategy. Normally it’s hoarding latest and pulling cp on classics as you earn them. Especially when the recent new 5* releases are getting feeders so you’ll get them rostered for pve essentials. 
  • nonnel
    nonnel Posts: 128 Tile Toppler
    Dormammu said:
    nonnel said:
    spend money, get CP
    Or you could just play.

    People say they can't hoard, that they lack the willpower or it bores them. It doesn't take that long to build up a sizable nest egg of pulls with regular play. I still open all my tokens every day, with the exception of the LTs. I scratch the token itch.

    I enjoy watching my hoard grow, every CP or LT added makes me smile, knowing that I will choose the opportune time to spend it - when I can maximize my pulls for the characters I want. It's smart to hoard around duds like Wasp and lie in the weeds, waiting for the right three to exist in latest legends. It's even smarter now that vaulting is no longer a thing, because you don't have to worry about maximizing the latest twelve 4-stars.

    The top players on these forums have been telling us that hoarding is the best way to fully cover 5-stars. I finally started listening to them and it turns out they're right.
    Lol....  I’ve had hoards that have made the devs cringe.  It used to drive one of them insane to look at my heroic stash.  I was hoarding before hoarding was cool.  Before 5*s.  I just cashed in over 4K tokens.  And I still have a couple K left.  

    And yet, I’ve seen hoards from folks who spend that crush my hoard.   So I’ll stick by my earlier comment.  Spend money.  Get CP

    I’d name names.  But it’s against the SSOLU code.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
    beyonderbub said:
    broll said:
    beyonderbub said:
    broll said:
    He's not quibbling over semantics...  He's explaining that what you said before and in the above is wrong.  

    Hypotheticals aside, my initial point stands: if you are meant to draw a 5*  on your next token, it will remain a 5* pull - THAT is pre-determined. As long as they don't introduce new 5* characters, it will be the same 5* character. When they intro a new 5*, then the rotation will shift and you will pull a different 5*, but it's still a 5*.

    You can hoard if you want and pull once a 6-week cycle or hold it for 18-weeks for the next 3 5*s, you WILL BE delaying your roster progress in doing so and in the player B examples you post above, you will be hurting your progress by forcing yourself by choice to chase "Lumber, Okoye and Wasp" in the even more diluted Classics pool.

    I apologize for not expressly spelling out my intention with the initial statement: "All pulls are already predetermined so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress"
    Yes I was never disputing that 4* / 5* rate would change. However your last statement is still in my mind incorrect. If in my above example player B hoarded for a riciulous period of time. Let’s say 6 years simply for easy math with 6 weeks.  Player As roster would progress to having 12 covers per 5*. Player B would get would get 208 covers for 3 characters and be able to max champ all 3. That’s drastically different roster progression.   The main point I was trying to make is hoarding does alter roster progression. The longer the hoard the more drastically. So saying “so hoarding just delays inevitable roster progress" is not correct. 
    You and I fundamentally disagree on what is roster progression then. I would rather have many baby champ 5*s (2/mo x 6 years  ~ 144 5* champs) that I use daily in that time to gain rewards/excel at pve and pvp than disappearing from the competitive scene, stalled at the same level, watching everyone move past me while I hoard for 6 years only to show up with 3 max champed 5s at the end of that.

     Hoarding denies you chances at champ rewards like more LTs or more CP to pull potential 5s or move champ 4s forward. That is the “delay” I’m talking about. Whether it’s for a month or 6 years, it stalls your chances at progressing your roster via champ rewards (tokens,cp, xp for iso to level your toons). It can be beneficial in short durations only if you have already gotten your current 5s stable where you want it to be (for me that’s champed and earning rewards) and saving up for next release. 

    The other issue with hoarding is that results are not guaranteed when you bust that hoard. The longer you wait and the worse RNG treats you ( for example, 5000-10000 cp blown to attempt champing 3 Latest and you get no 5s or get enough 5s to cover the weakest of the trio up to level 475 but only a few covers for the other 2), the more inclined you are to quit the game after others have preached to you that hoarding was the solution to getting champ 5s. Meanwhile the person pulling daily, even if they don’t pull any 5s, now has a ton of 4s in the 320+ range giving out high level rewards and enjoying that roster daily in pve/pvp.  Which player is better off? That’s a matter of opinion. Not correct or incorrect. 
    How does not getting every baby champ equate to you dropping out of the competitive scene/having people pass you by?  MMR keeps you playing generally people of the same roster strength.  A player could in theory have a 100% static roster for a very long period of time and continue to get high placement.  When I was actively competing in PvP I was getting T10s in SCL9 with a roster of only 5 5*s beating out people with better rosters due to playstyle. IMO there are certain humps you have to get over to achieve certain placement levels easier, however outside those humps your roster level isn't all that relevant, it's more about how you play/when you play/optimal play, etc.

    However, let's say I accepted your idea that roster level has a direct correlation to placement/being competitive, I don't but hypothetically.  The only way I can see that making sense is based around either having the latest must have character or not.  Hoarding allows you to get that must have character sooner and/or to a much higher level, which would be more beneficial then just barely champing them if that's what dictates placement.

    I get what you're saying about delaying champ rewards and I understand your point, but still fundamentally disagree.  Once you're at the point where you're treading water (meaning most/all 4* and below champed and enough 5* champed) you rarely need ISO, XP is just another way to gain ISO once you have access to SCL9 (which is super low), HP as long as your getting 1000 each 2 weeks is plenty other than buying stores/deals, the only thing you're really missing is CP & LTs.  Going back to the above idea of hoarding to get certain must have characters as high as possible, getting those CP and LTs when you're opening the hoard is either an RNG boost to your number of pulls or setting up a high starting value for your next hoard.

    Sure you're not guaranteed a character when you boost a hoard, but you're not any more guaranteed to cover the characters pulling as you go, RNG is RNG.  You state that "The longer you wait and the worse RNG treats you" but I don't believe there is basis for that.  RNG is streaky, but people who have posted their long term numbers usually show it being striking close to the advertised 15%.  The more you pull in one go the statistically more likely you are to pull 15%.  Smaller hoards can be all over the board from 0-30%, but the longer you pull it should level out to 15%.  IMO this is the biggest reason to hoard.  Back to my above example of someone who's standard distribution would be about 12 5* covers before that character leaves Latest.  If you get bad RNG on a new, must have, character and only get 6 for that character, your roster is the worse for it.  Hoarding gives you a statical advantage to overcoming poor RNG via pure brute force. It's a bad experience to do a big hoard hoping to get 18 covers for a character and only getting 13, but it's better than not getting 13 at all.  

    I don't think we're gonna agree on this so I'll bow out of this debate and agree to disagree.  

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