Mistcaller vs Leaders and tokens

Brakkis
Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
edited August 2018 in MtGPQ General Discussion
At first glance, Mistcaller seems like a direct counter to Leader deck shenanigans.

He is not.

At least, if the Leader is out before the token spam begins. If so, then the Leader still gets to absorb the token, taking priority over Mistcaller exiling the token.

I wonder if that is the correct priority or if Mistcaller should prevent the token from even spawning in order to be absorbed by and reinforce the Leader.

I've tested it against Slimefoot/Tendershoot and Squee.

Comments

  • DumasAG
    DumasAG Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    oooh, that's a bummer. I thought this would be a great counter. Glad I got the Isareth out of the Elite pack and not Mistcaller
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    It definitely should stop the leader from reinforcing.  @Oktagon_Daiane I'm not sure how the programming would work, but that's the proper interaction (maybe add a line of "Leaders Cannot be Reinforced" to it?  That way you don't have to re-order how everything triggers)
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hmm.... I haven't tested that out, but I have enjoyed using him when facing off against Saheeli and Elspeth since the AI will absolutely spam getting thopters and soldier tokens. So I can say that it at least works there.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    Oh it works wonders against token spam. Just not when a Leader is in play absorbing them.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    I've been having huge success with Plague Mare in wiping out reinforcements on token stacks... 12/12 ? poof! 1/1 now. Great card. But I had wondered if Mistcaller would work that way. Bummer that it doesn't, it should though
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ok, but IF you change that then realistically you have to change it so the tokens trigger every single other ETB effect... It's all or nothing, not special coding just for Mistcaller. (Or at least it should be, otherwise there will be different problems down the track.)

    We need a definitive written down rule on whether tokens reinforcing leaders count as entering play first or not.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kinesia said:
    Ok, but IF you change that then realistically you have to change it so the tokens trigger every single other ETB effect... It's all or nothing, not special coding just for Mistcaller. (Or at least it should be, otherwise there will be different problems down the track.)

    We need a definitive written down rule on whether tokens reinforcing leaders count as entering play first or not.
    I agree that it would be a mess.  That's why I think Mistcaller should just say "Enemy leaders cannot be reinforced" or something similar as an additional effect.  Best of both worlds
  • stikxs
    stikxs Posts: 533 Critical Contributor

    Kinesia said:
    Ok, but IF you change that then realistically you have to change it so the tokens trigger every single other ETB effect... It's all or nothing, not special coding just for Mistcaller. (Or at least it should be, otherwise there will be different problems down the track.)

    We need a definitive written down rule on whether tokens reinforcing leaders count as entering play first or not.
    Shouldn't tokens already trigger etb effects? As long as an effect doesn't specify non-tokens only. What do they not trigger?

  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
    stikxs said:

    Kinesia said:
    Ok, but IF you change that then realistically you have to change it so the tokens trigger every single other ETB effect... It's all or nothing, not special coding just for Mistcaller. (Or at least it should be, otherwise there will be different problems down the track.)

    We need a definitive written down rule on whether tokens reinforcing leaders count as entering play first or not.
    Shouldn't tokens already trigger etb effects? As long as an effect doesn't specify non-tokens only. What do they not trigger?

    In paper magic, it depends on the verbiage. So if a card says “whenever a creature token enters the battlefield, exile it” then it would trigger. Mistcaller is worded as a replacement effect along the lines of “if it would enter, exile it instead” so it never actually comes into play, and wouldn’t trigger and ETB effects. 
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mburn7 said:
    Kinesia said:
    Ok, but IF you change that then realistically you have to change it so the tokens trigger every single other ETB effect... It's all or nothing, not special coding just for Mistcaller. (Or at least it should be, otherwise there will be different problems down the track.)

    We need a definitive written down rule on whether tokens reinforcing leaders count as entering play first or not.
    I agree that it would be a mess.  That's why I think Mistcaller should just say "Enemy leaders cannot be reinforced" or something similar as an additional effect.  Best of both worlds
    But then you can't reinforce them by other means as well?
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    Leadership does have some shenanigans: ETB effects should happen (like explore) and mistcaller should prevale thetokens from enteren, etb-ing and getting absorbed.

    @Oktagon_Daiane

    Can you shed some light on what the design philosophy is in this case?
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Laeuftbeidir said:
    Mburn7 said:
    Kinesia said:
    Ok, but IF you change that then realistically you have to change it so the tokens trigger every single other ETB effect... It's all or nothing, not special coding just for Mistcaller. (Or at least it should be, otherwise there will be different problems down the track.)

    We need a definitive written down rule on whether tokens reinforcing leaders count as entering play first or not.
    I agree that it would be a mess.  That's why I think Mistcaller should just say "Enemy leaders cannot be reinforced" or something similar as an additional effect.  Best of both worlds
    But then you can't reinforce them by other means as well?
    Yeah, it would be a very powerful ability, since it would stop them from reinforcing on additional casts or other abilities.  But coding a "cannot be reinforced by tokens" would probably be hard, especially since the new leaders don't even summon a token a lot of the time, they just get reinforced.  I say err on the side of slightly too powerful instead of the current version.  Remember, Mistcaller is supposed to be an anti-shenanigans card, so lets make it actually function as a solid hate card.
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    All creatures lose leader?
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2018
       Come on, for 9 mana it ruins most of the token strategies, except if there's a leader on board ... That sounds fair enough to me actually. I don't really see the problem here.
       Besides, its not really a surprise, path of discovery didnt trigger upon token reinforcing a leader and that never looked odd to anyone if im not confused.

       Some might say its easy to kill or bounce mistcaller so its not that bad if it is even more punishing ... Well its also quite easy to kill or bounce a leader when you play mistcaller ... And the rest of the deck becomes useless then.

      Now if it really has to break tokens + draw cards + ruin leaders, then let's consider a decent cost for it because 9 isn't enough.
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bil said:
       Come on, for 9 mana it ruins most of the token strategies, except if there's a leader on board ... That sounds fair enough to me actually. I don't really see the problem here.
       Besides, its not really a surprise, path of discovery didnt trigger upon token reinforcing a leader and that never looked odd to anyone if im not confused.

       Some might say its easy to kill or bounce mistcaller so its not that bad if it is even more punishing ... Well its also quite easy to kill or bounce a leader when you play mistcaller ... And the rest of the deck becomes useless then.

      Now if it really has to break tokens + draw cards + ruin leaders, then let's consider a decent cost for it because 9 isn't enough.

    I agree. Leave it as this. Too much stuff changes if it changes, we could easily end up with something worse or more confusing or both!
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2018
    Laeuftbeidir said:
    All creatures lose leader?

    That would be perfect. Or rather "Your opponent's creatures lose Leader"
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brakkis said:
    Laeuftbeidir said:
    All creatures lose leader?

    That would be perfect. Or rather "Your opponent's creatures lose Leader"

    Too cheap to be onesided and the token part ISN'T currently.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2018
    Kinesia said:
    Brakkis said:
    Laeuftbeidir said:
    All creatures lose leader?

    That would be perfect. Or rather "Your opponent's creatures lose Leader"

    Too cheap to be onesided and the token part ISN'T currently.

    His cost and his unique capacity is off-set by his low P/T. At 3/3, he's genuinely easy to kill off. I could see justifying setting him at 11 or 12 if the Leader part was added.

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