Runes, Where fore art though runes?
Houdin
Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
6 New planeswalkers is awesome.
However where will I get the 2 million runes? to level them on top of the 6 I'm already trying to level?
You really need to bring back something like QB to make this viable @Brigby
I would love to purchase Bolas but what's the point if it's going to be mo ths before I can level him?
However where will I get the 2 million runes? to level them on top of the 6 I'm already trying to level?
You really need to bring back something like QB to make this viable @Brigby
I would love to purchase Bolas but what's the point if it's going to be mo ths before I can level him?
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Comments
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It looks like they increased the rune progression rewards of Training Grounds. So that'll help1
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Now, I'm not sure if I'm in the majority or minority in this opinion (and please hear me out on it), but I'd be in favor of eliminating runes as a whole and having planeswalkers be just as they are at what is currently level 60.
While levels are fundamental in other PQ titles, I've always felt they are a cumbersome and unnecessary part of MTGPQ, as this is a title that is based upon an existing card game and thus progression is based upon collection and no so much level. Using a low level walker to get a low level match and then swapping to a high level walker is also an exploit that still exists to this day. Outside of using them to cheese, competitive play isn't truly viable for under leveled walkers, meaning that high level players are more likely to just wait until a walker is fully leveled before using them. Now that we have Booster Crafting, orbs are far more useful than runes in terms of account progression and I'd propose a level-less system with orbs being the main reward currency (quantity adjusted accordingly). If the rewards were 10% of the current rune rewards, it would take about as much time to earn a mythic booster crafting of a current set as it currently takes to fully level a new planeswalker and as for existing runes, do a one-time conversion of banked runes at a favorable rate compared to the reworked rewards (as those who have banked runes have likely poured millions of runes into planeswalkers and shouldn't be left feeling cheated for all their time grinding for those runes).
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Hateborn said:Now, I'm not sure if I'm in the majority or minority in this opinion (and please hear me out on it), but I'd be in favor of eliminating runes as a whole and having planeswalkers be just as they are at what is currently level 60.
While levels are fundamental in other PQ titles, I've always felt they are a cumbersome and unnecessary part of MTGPQ, as this is a title that is based upon an existing card game and thus progression is based upon collection and no so much level. Using a low level walker to get a low level match and then swapping to a high level walker is also an exploit that still exists to this day. Outside of using them to cheese, competitive play isn't truly viable for under leveled walkers, meaning that high level players are more likely to just wait until a walker is fully leveled before using them. Now that we have Booster Crafting, orbs are far more useful than runes in terms of account progression and I'd propose a level-less system with orbs being the main reward currency (quantity adjusted accordingly). If the rewards were 10% of the current rune rewards, it would take about as much time to earn a mythic booster crafting of a current set as it currently takes to fully level a new planeswalker and as for existing runes, do a one-time conversion of banked runes at a favorable rate compared to the reworked rewards (as those who have banked runes have likely poured millions of runes into planeswalkers and shouldn't be left feeling cheated for all their time grinding for those runes).0 -
I've argued in favor of removing runes/PW levels altogether in the past too.
Since the introduction of gems and orbs, Runes have really taken a back seat and feel entirely superfluous if it wasn't for lvling planeswalkers (which is painfully tedious and not fun).
The only place where lvling makes any sense to me, is when a new player joins the game and levels up their first Nissa as they progress through story mode.
Here's how I would change things:
- remove runes
- remove planeswalker levels
- replace all rune rewards with orbs
- use orbs for any remaining things that are bought with runes (deck slots, ... that's it?)
- introduce some form of 'account level' for new players, once you complete the story you should be max level1 -
Hateborn said:... Outside of using them to cheese, competitive play isn't truly viable for under leveled walkers, meaning that high level players are more likely to just wait until a walker is fully leveled before using them. ...
I currently have 12/39 PWs at level 60. And only have plans to take a few more to 60 if/when I get the runes.
Some are great at low level (Liliana, Death's Majesty), others play well in mid-range (Vraska, Karn, Teferi (even though I took him to 60)), and some are fun to stomp around with at max (Jaya, Angrath, Kiora).
Leveling PWs is one of the resource-management aspects of the game that extends it's playability. If everyone bought every PW and they were all max level, would there be as much of an incentive to try out new decks that fit within the constraints of a lower-level PW's build restrictions? I personally enjoy the challenge of trying to pull off something cool with say a 1-support limit on my decks (looking at you, level 12 Koth).
The other aspect, matching PW selection to meet specific Event Objectives, can also be a factor.
As examples: "win in 5 rounds or less" is a lot easier with my level 12 Koth than with my level 52 Bolas, as very few opponents in the level 12-22 range have 100+ HP to knock down.
Also, "win with 50 or fewer HP" means I can take any of my PWs with 50HP max (level 6 Liliana, Death's Majesty; level 30 Sorin, etc.) into the fight, and not have to worry about the life-gain bug bumping my end-of-match total above the target. And I don't need to do self-inflicted burn or wait around for Greg to do the job on my level-60 Angrath to work him down to sub-50 HP.2 -
Enygma6 said:Hateborn said:... Outside of using them to cheese, competitive play isn't truly viable for under leveled walkers, meaning that high level players are more likely to just wait until a walker is fully leveled before using them. ...
I currently have 12/39 PWs at level 60. And only have plans to take a few more to 60 if/when I get the runes.
Some are great at low level (Liliana, Death's Majesty), others play well in mid-range (Vraska, Karn, Teferi (even though I took him to 60)), and some are fun to stomp around with at max (Jaya, Angrath, Kiora).
Leveling PWs is one of the resource-management aspects of the game that extends it's playability. If everyone bought every PW and they were all max level, would there be as much of an incentive to try out new decks that fit within the constraints of a lower-level PW's build restrictions? I personally enjoy the challenge of trying to pull off something cool with say a 1-support limit on my decks (looking at you, level 12 Koth).
The other aspect, matching PW selection to meet specific Event Objectives, can also be a factor.
As examples: "win in 5 rounds or less" is a lot easier with my level 12 Koth than with my level 52 Bolas, as very few opponents in the level 12-22 range have 100+ HP to knock down.
Also, "win with 50 or fewer HP" means I can take any of my PWs with 50HP max (level 6 Liliana, Death's Majesty; level 30 Sorin, etc.) into the fight, and not have to worry about the life-gain bug bumping my end-of-match total above the target. And I don't need to do self-inflicted burn or wait around for Greg to do the job on my level-60 Angrath to work him down to sub-50 HP.
Additionally, when it comes to the objectives, they've already shown a willingness to change the objectives to make them more interesting. Finish the game with only common and uncommon cards, finish with creatures costing 11 or less, etc. They could start throwing in difficult objectives like 'finish the game with 1 or less creature', etc. Generally speaking, the finish with x life or more/less is not a favored objective at the moment anyhow.
If we're talking strategic builds, I'm much more a fan of everyone's walker's being at same level with same base abilities, and then allowing players to purchase augmentations that alter PW abilities, increase a mana bonus at the expense of 40 starting health, begin the game with a special support in play, etc. That would be far, far more interesting in my opinion.1 -
DumasAG said:There's potentially some valid points here, but one could argue that you don't have to be restricted by low-level limitations - you simply say, "I'm going to use one support or less in my level 60 Koth." Just because you have the ability to do more doesn't mean you can't challenge yourself.
Additionally, when it comes to the objectives, they've already shown a willingness to change the objectives to make them more interesting. Finish the game with only common and uncommon cards, finish with creatures costing 11 or less, etc. They could start throwing in difficult objectives like 'finish the game with 1 or less creature', etc. Generally speaking, the finish with x life or more/less is not a favored objective at the moment anyhow.
If we're talking strategic builds, I'm much more a fan of everyone's walker's being at same level with same base abilities, and then allowing players to purchase augmentations that alter PW abilities, increase a mana bonus at the expense of 40 starting health, begin the game with a special support in play, etc. That would be far, far more interesting in my opinion.
As we have seen, even giving Hibernium's spaghetti code a sideways glance can give rise to untold bugs and crashes. I would prefer they use new Objective goals going forward, and leave those Legacy ones where they are so long as they keep rotating those Events through on a semi-regular basis.
There is also the special rush of taking down a level 60 opponent in TG with a sub-15 PW on my side, when I want to reset the opposition when switching to a different PW/deck build idea. My smurf Koth and Liliana are good at that if say I had been stomping around with Angrath (60), then want to try out a slower strategy with Jace (22), and don't feel like putting the poor boy up against the unrelenting wall of level-60 Koths and Bolases out there.
This saves me from having to waste potions every time I reset TG to an appropriate level.0 -
The easiest change is just to leave runes and levels as they are (because that's BIG stuff to change in one go and get right) BUT add giving a PW experience on every single win or when you master a card with them.
And yeah, some people try and keep things low and this STOPS them which is also good and allows people to just keep playing with the people they want to level. It also FEELS better to level up through playing.
(I'd actually prefer that every single PW have an "intro" like Nissa does that gives them their first levels and teaches you to play them, but that's extra work and less likely.)2 -
Kinesia said:The easiest change is just to leave runes and levels as they are (because that's BIG stuff to change in one go and get right) BUT add giving a PW experience on every single win or when you master a card with them.
And yeah, some people try and keep things low and this STOPS them which is also good and allows people to just keep playing with the people they want to level. It also FEELS better to level up through playing.
(I'd actually prefer that every single PW have an "intro" like Nissa does that gives them their first levels and teaches you to play them, but that's extra work and less likely.)
The rate of rune accumulation has taken a big hit since the introduction of Booster Crafting (tradeoff - we get Orbs for crafting).
Perhaps Mastering a card ought to give some Rune payout bonus in addition to the tier color-ranking total.1 -
Enygma6 said:Kinesia said:The easiest change is just to leave runes and levels as they are (because that's BIG stuff to change in one go and get right) BUT add giving a PW experience on every single win or when you master a card with them.
And yeah, some people try and keep things low and this STOPS them which is also good and allows people to just keep playing with the people they want to level. It also FEELS better to level up through playing.
(I'd actually prefer that every single PW have an "intro" like Nissa does that gives them their first levels and teaches you to play them, but that's extra work and less likely.)
The rate of rune accumulation has taken a big hit since the introduction of Booster Crafting (tradeoff - we get Orbs for crafting).
Perhaps Mastering a card ought to give some Rune payout bonus in addition to the tier color-ranking total.You do realize you also get runes for dupes in addition to orbs?If anything booster crafting increased the amount of runes we're getting, since nobody is hoarding dupes just in case anymore.I do agree that it would be nice to get runes (or something) for mastering a card. That would give it a purpose once you hit platinum with 1/100 (estimated) of cards mastered.0 -
Mburn7 said:You do realize you also get runes for dupes in addition to orbs?If anything booster crafting increased the amount of runes we're getting, since nobody is hoarding dupes just in case anymore.
People would occasionally convert duplicate cards pre-Booster Crafting days.1 -
Mburn7 said:It looks like they increased the rune progression rewards of Training Grounds. So that'll help
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I never felt a true shortage of runes until two things happened. The primary being that I stopped spending money in game . I'll still spend 20 or 30 bux when a new set comes out, but I don't buy exclusives at all anymore ,and I usually buy 1 pw. The amount of runes I acquired arbitrarily through purchases did add up. The second thing was XLN and RIX releasing on top of each other with karn and DOM following closely . I don't really see runes going away ,but I think that levelling costs could be rethought. Especially with the trend of 320k pws. It's really making me less inclined to pick up new walkers.3
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HarryMason said:I never felt a true shortage of runes until two things happened. The primary being that I stopped spending money in game . I'll still spend 20 or 30 bux when a new set comes out, but I don't buy exclusives at all anymore ,and I usually buy 1 pw. The amount of runes I acquired arbitrarily through purchases did add up. The second thing was XLN and RIX releasing on top of each other with karn and DOM following closely . I don't really see runes going away ,but I think that levelling costs could be rethought. Especially with the trend of 320k pws. It's really making me less inclined to pick up new walkers.
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Enygma6 said:Mburn7 said:You do realize you also get runes for dupes in addition to orbs?If anything booster crafting increased the amount of runes we're getting, since nobody is hoarding dupes just in case anymore.
People would occasionally convert duplicate cards pre-Booster Crafting days.0 -
Mburn7 said:Enygma6 said:Mburn7 said:You do realize you also get runes for dupes in addition to orbs?If anything booster crafting increased the amount of runes we're getting, since nobody is hoarding dupes just in case anymore.
People would occasionally convert duplicate cards pre-Booster Crafting days.Enygma is correct. It's been long enough that it's becoming easier to forget, but the runes given out were halved with booster crafting. Original rune conversion rates can be seen here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/42864/pre-release-v1-4-notes-4-14-162 -
Volrak said:Mburn7 said:Enygma6 said:Mburn7 said:You do realize you also get runes for dupes in addition to orbs?If anything booster crafting increased the amount of runes we're getting, since nobody is hoarding dupes just in case anymore.
People would occasionally convert duplicate cards pre-Booster Crafting days.Enygma is correct. It's been long enough that it's becoming easier to forget, but the runes given out were halved with booster crafting. Original rune conversion rates can be seen here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/42864/pre-release-v1-4-notes-4-14-16
And I guess my memory is a bit foggy (damn I'm getting old). My apologies @Enygma61 -
There still needs to be more opportunities for ruins. I play this game daily and still have a boatload of planeswalkers I want to level up, now there is 6 more coming? It's going to be impossible0
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Wolfteeth said:There still needs to be more opportunities for ruins. I play this game daily and still have a boatload of planeswalkers I want to level up, now there is 6 more coming? It's going to be impossible
At least the new walkers are mostly monocolored, so they don't take too long to level0 -
A player beginning the game today would need close to 5.6 million runes to level up all 44 PWs to maximum, counting the new M19 offerings. That's not counting paying 20k runes a pop for an extra deck slot either.
That's more than 22000 victories at 250 runes apiece. Even if each one takes just five minutes, you're talking about 1800+ hours of game time.
Yes, we get runes as rewards from events... not much, but it's some. Yes, most players aren't going to obtain every PW, or devote resources to leveling up every PW. But that's still a daunting amount. And it says nothing of the nearly 19000 crystals it would take to buy all those PWs in the first place.
I've been playing for about seven months now and I've got about half the PWs, and I've only maxed four of them, because my runes are spread so thin trying to get to play a bunch of different styles at a minimum level of effectiveness. I think the new M19 PWs have some pretty cool ideas to them! But at this point I've got no plans to buy any of them... not for cash, not immediately for crystals either. Why? I've got half a dozen PWs I already own waiting for more runes. I don't have the luxury of pouring 320k runes into ANOTHER Grixis PW, or sinking runes into more limited mono-color walkers when I've got better two-color walkers like Saheeli and Samut still waiting to climb out of the 30s.
And I play this game every day. Every event, even the low-reward legacy ones. I play Heroic Encounters because I enjoy mastering every card I own. I can't imagine how picky a casual player has to be over where to spend their resources... or how much of a disincentive it is to acquiring new content when you know it's gonna take hours upon hours to finally truly unlock it.
I don't think we should do away with runes and leveling entirely. I'd like to see some or all of the following changes:
1. Increase the amount of runes earned for winning a match. 250 should be a minimum. Something like 500 would be more reasonable, or 1000.
2. Provide a mode of the game where users can play a series of escalating challenges for greater rune rewards. It could be as simple as adding +250 runes to your prize pool for each game you win in TG, maybe up to a certain cap. I'd prefer something like an opponent where each round you play, the opponent gets better (better cards, more starting health, better mana bonuses, more powerful PW abilities, whatever) but the reward for winning is greater... then let players play that opponent as much as they want, up until they lose (or lose X times, or something along those lines).
3. Get rid of the beginner/intermediate/advanced decks that do nothing but provide us a small rune bump when completed at the cost of giving us a place to accidentally click if we want to bring a bad deck into an event instead of one we built ourselves. Default each PW to one available deck slot PER FORMAT, with one purchaseable slot per format for runes, and one for crystals. Make the crystals one cheaper (maybe 50, maybe 25) and the runes one available for non-60 PWs.
4. Let a player select the level at which they want to play their PW when entering a match. If I've got a PW at level 45, let me choose to go in at level 20, or 45, or 6. Set the opposing PW to the same level. No more smurfing, no more dodging the best players by staying below level 50, no more gaming the system by entering a low level PW and then switching after the matchup has been established. Pick your level and go face that level.
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