Summon versus Cast? There should be a difference, but what is it???

bk1234

Objectives with these two words are all over the place -- and no one really knows what should count and what shouldn't. 

My opinion aligns with paper:

Cast -- the card comes directly from your hand. 
Summon - the card comes from anywhere else (token spells or supports, abilities, activate gems, etc)

The problem is some objectives are written as summon and they only count as cast -- some objectives are written as cast and things you summon count. 

Since the ability to use tokens in interesting ways is a priority with new sets, It would be nice to have these two keywords clearly defined and have all objectives rewritten and appropriately programmed to reflect what we should actually be trying to achieve. 

Mburn7

I believe they attempted to fix this at some point, but just failed to change the wording of older objectives and cards.

Technically "Summon" and "Cast" are the same thing (both should only count from your hand) and tokens are "Created"

The issue is cards were made up to Innistrad (or maybe even Amonkhet, I can't remember) before anyone decided to try and make a distinction, leading to the confusion.

Laeuftbeidir

I agree with every post asking for clearer rules and consequently applied language.

If, after several years of playing, you can't tell for sure how a card or objective works based on the wording, something is wrong

DBJones

Yeah, this game really needs a rigor and consistency overhaul. Heck, I still find filler text from time to time, and can't even be bothered to report it because it doesn't seem like anything would happen. Also, does summon in paper not include creatures that are cast from hand? Bken's description makes it sound like that, but it seems odd to me.

bk1234

@Mburn7 -- interesting -- here is my question though -- with the new focus on building around tokens (and even a token objective in RotGP and JTH) should there be a distinction to include tokens, or an entirely new word to describe token objectives?

Some "cast" RotGP objectives count tokens so should it be "cast or create x knights" (or whatever) -- also -- if they are the same, why do we need both. It's just confusing because they look like different objectives. 

It must be so hard to be a new player in this game. 

bk1234

Also.... how should flipping Land supports be dealt with? (Since they cast on the non-land side?)

Mburn7

I didn't think tokens counted for any "cast" objective, just like cheating out a creature with Deploy or Reason//Believe no longer count for those.

And as for lands, I still think its a bug that they get a cast trigger when they flip.  I thought they should be counted the same as transform creatures from Innistrad where they keep reinforcements and buffs and just switch the the new base effect.  Keeping them counting as "casting" for cards like Tatyova but not counting for "cast lands" objectives is just weird.

Tilwin90

Summon does not exist in paper magic. I know it was once used but in the meantime has been discontinued.

There are (at least) four distinct triggers that should be relevant though related to creatures somehow ending up on the board:
- Cast, which is the moment you play the creature  card from hand. Whether it gets countered afterwards or not (a la Insidious Will in MTGPQ) is irrelevant. All cast effects should trigger at that point. MTG terminology here: a creature CARD is cast. 
- Enter the battlefield which is the moment the creature enters the battlefield. Whether it is a token being created, a creature reanimated from graveyard, a fetch from library put on battlefield effect, a flicker effect... these all should trigger etb effects. One thing that should NOT trigger this is change of allegiance (a la Exert Influence). MTG terminology here: a creature enters the battlefield. 
- Creation of tokens which is distinct from those above and is relevant for effects such as Annointed Procession. MTG terminology here: a creature token is created/you would create a creature token/etc. 
- Reinforcing a creature, should this act itself be relevant. Reinforcements are becoming more and more relevant under Octagon so this is also of high importance. Presumable MTG terminology: a creature is reinforced. 

Note that MTGPQ does not have a timeframe between casting a creature or spell creating tokens and the creature(s) entering the battlefield, other than pseudo counters.

A question I have is whether these effects should have a very specific order. I believe triggers should go in the order Cast -> Create Token -> Enters the battlefield -> Reinforces but I guess the lady two can be interchangeable - as long as the order is the same for all situations and universally applied. (the fewer unnecessary exceptions the better) 

Edit: For "create or cast" objectives I would argue "creature enters the battlefield" is more of an umbrella term. 

bk1234

Mburn7 said:

I didn't think tokens counted for any "cast" objective, just like cheating out a creature with Deploy or Reason//Believe no longer count for those.

And as for lands, I still think its a bug that they get a cast trigger when they flip.  I thought they should be counted the same as transform creatures from Innistrad where they keep reinforcements and buffs and just switch the the new base effect.  Keeping them counting as "casting" for cards like Tatyova but not counting for "cast lands" objectives is just weird.

In new RotGP, tokens count for all cast and summon objectives -- I believe also in JtH somewhere, but I haven't tested that myself. I did test it in RotGP. 

Mburn7

bken1234 said:

Mburn7 said:

I didn't think tokens counted for any "cast" objective, just like cheating out a creature with Deploy or Reason//Believe no longer count for those.

And as for lands, I still think its a bug that they get a cast trigger when they flip.  I thought they should be counted the same as transform creatures from Innistrad where they keep reinforcements and buffs and just switch the the new base effect.  Keeping them counting as "casting" for cards like Tatyova but not counting for "cast lands" objectives is just weird.

In new RotGP, tokens count for all cast and summon objectives -- I believe also in JtH somewhere, but I haven't tested that myself. I did test it in RotGP. 

Oh really?  That's really odd, since in past RotGP tokens didn't count for cast.  I wonder if its a bug or just more sloppiness on their end.

Tilwin90

Does putting creatures into play on your side count? (graveyard, library or even stealing) 

HarryMason

They tried to fix this when they started using the term create instead of summon on token generators. The problem is that, as with everything else, they didn't do anything to clarify the difference, or to fix old wordings. Summon, in objectives means cast . It has for most of the time events have been a thing . Any time you see summon on a card ,it means create, because create is the current vernacular. They should really stop using the term summon because they eliminated it from card text. Maybe some day they'll give us consistent wordings 

James13

Prior to the SOI/EM block, everything counted.

During the block we had the first introduction of the summon 2 wolf/werewolves and summon 2 or less creatures objective pair.

This causes a great deal of uproar at the time as Imprison in the Moon and Turn to Frog were commonly seen and caused the player to auto-fail as the token replacement counted against your summon count.  This prompted a change in the functionality where only cards cast from your own hand counted as summons and all alternative entry did not count.

That was the origin of the change and differentiation in summoning counts.

FindingHeart8

if they want to make mtgpq closer to paper magic, then it needs to follow the technical wording which is critical in the abilities and effects of cards in mtg.

FeralSkald

Mburn7 said:

bken1234 said:

Mburn7 said:

I didn't think tokens counted for any "cast" objective, just like cheating out a creature with Deploy or Reason//Believe no longer count for those.

And as for lands, I still think its a bug that they get a cast trigger when they flip.  I thought they should be counted the same as transform creatures from Innistrad where they keep reinforcements and buffs and just switch the the new base effect.  Keeping them counting as "casting" for cards like Tatyova but not counting for "cast lands" objectives is just weird.

In new RotGP, tokens count for all cast and summon objectives -- I believe also in JtH somewhere, but I haven't tested that myself. I did test it in RotGP. 

Oh really?  That's really odd, since in past RotGP tokens didn't count for cast.  I wonder if its a bug or just more sloppiness on their end.

Strange indeed, I've not seen that behavior, including the last event. Is it something specific? Tokens from PW abilities, TSN, vamps, knights from supports, Josu zombies. I've not observed any of those count. Curios what tokens you were using that counted?

bk1234

FeralSkald said:

Mburn7 said:

bken1234 said:

Mburn7 said:

I didn't think tokens counted for any "cast" objective, just like cheating out a creature with Deploy or Reason//Believe no longer count for those.

And as for lands, I still think its a bug that they get a cast trigger when they flip.  I thought they should be counted the same as transform creatures from Innistrad where they keep reinforcements and buffs and just switch the the new base effect.  Keeping them counting as "casting" for cards like Tatyova but not counting for "cast lands" objectives is just weird.

In new RotGP, tokens count for all cast and summon objectives -- I believe also in JtH somewhere, but I haven't tested that myself. I did test it in RotGP. 

Oh really?  That's really odd, since in past RotGP tokens didn't count for cast.  I wonder if its a bug or just more sloppiness on their end.

Strange indeed, I've not seen that behavior, including the last event. Is it something specific? Tokens from PW abilities, TSN, vamps, knights from supports, Josu zombies. I've not observed any of those count. Curios what tokens you were using that counted?

Thopters from Saheeli's first and TSN worked for me, I had a teammate test Elspeth's first and it worked for him.

Kinesia

The other (related) issue is that none of the things about event objectives are TAUGHT to new players, they know none of this except through trial and error or luck until they join a coalition big enough to actually hear about it.

There needs to be a tutorial on how events and objectives work ESPECIALLY the summon vs cast stuff because it matters too much.

FeralSkald

bken1234 said:

FeralSkald said: 

Mburn7 said:

bken1234 said:

Mburn7 said:

I didn't think tokens counted for any "cast" objective, just like cheating out a creature with Deploy or Reason//Believe no longer count for those.

And as for lands, I still think its a bug that they get a cast trigger when they flip.  I thought they should be counted the same as transform creatures from Innistrad where they keep reinforcements and buffs and just switch the the new base effect.  Keeping them counting as "casting" for cards like Tatyova but not counting for "cast lands" objectives is just weird.

In new RotGP, tokens count for all cast and summon objectives -- I believe also in JtH somewhere, but I haven't tested that myself. I did test it in RotGP. 

Oh really?  That's really odd, since in past RotGP tokens didn't count for cast.  I wonder if its a bug or just more sloppiness on their end.

Strange indeed, I've not seen that behavior, including the last event. Is it something specific? Tokens from PW abilities, TSN, vamps, knights from supports, Josu zombies. I've not observed any of those count. Curios what tokens you were using that counted?

Thopters from Saheeli's first and TSN worked for me, I had a teammate test Elspeth's first and it worked for him.

Wait, there was a new objective that required summoning tokens, and that all counted. But for normal don't summon objectives none of those counted. Will have to pay closer attention.