Strange cards in M19

andrewvanmarle

Some cards stood out to me as unproductive, strange or unintended:

Chromium: Why would this have flash? it has no ETB and it gets played after spells are cast by your oponent. 

Thorn Lieutenant Onnly Dwynen Elite makes (a single) elf token, the leader function is kinda useless... Maybe ad an elf generator?

Supreme Phantom Not many spirits left in standard....


Transmogrifiying wand: It should hit the last creature (otherwise you end up changing an ox for an ox, and it should exile the original creature since it isnt dead, it is turned into an ox. (the same goes for turn to frog)

Unknown

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madwren

Chromium having flash is odd...it's essentially the same as having haste, since he doesn't have any effects.

James13

Diregraf Ghoul.

Mburn7

madwren said:

Chromium having flash is odd...it's essentially the same as having haste, since he doesn't have any effects.

He has flash in paper, but then again that is so you get a surprise 7/7 flier to block.  Its the same problem the Flash masterpiece has, the game mechanics make it practically useless.

FindingHeart8

Pics please, cant be on facebook at work

BATMAN1

As far as elf leader goes, I bet one of the PWs have and elf generator abilty

wereotter

Sai, Master Thopterist 

Other leaders have a larger body than the tokens they replace. Sai is a 1/2 on the ground replacing 1/1 fliers. (Although he does gain flying one he has 2 or more reinforcements)  This legendary feels like he should have been a 2/2 instead of a 1/2

FindingHeart8

wereotter said:

Sai, Master Thopterist 

Other leaders have a larger body than the tokens they replace. Sai is a 1/2 on the ground replacing 1/1 fliers. (Although he does gain flying one he has 2 or more reinforcements)  This legendary feels like he should have been a 2/2 instead of a 1/2

at first I thought this was a really good card, then I reread it and caught the "cast" part.

The reinforce trigger functions different than the leader trigger correct?  Say I cast Ornithopter, which is both a thopter and a cast artifact, would it be reinforced once or twice?

Would it's "Activate 3" ability weaken it if it lost a reinforcement?  Or just lower the reinforcement counter on the creature?

If the reinforcement buffs are permanent, with no fluctuation in it's power or toughness except for increasing, I could see why they kept it at 1. 

James13

FindingHeart8 said:

at first I thought this was a really good card, then I reread it and caught the "cast" part.

The reinforce trigger functions different than the leader trigger correct?  Say I cast Ornithopter, which is both a thopter and a cast artifact, would it be reinforced once or twice?

Would it's "Activate 3" ability weaken it if it lost a reinforcement?  Or just lower the reinforcement counter on the creature?

If the reinforcement buffs are permanent, with no fluctuation in it's power or toughness except for increasing, I could see why they kept it at 1. 

Casting Ornithopter would reinforce him once via the cast trigger.  Ornithopter is not a token and not subject to Leader.  The Ornithopter will stay on the board.

Losing a reinforcement reduces the stats associated with the reinforcement.

The only thopter token in game is a 1/1, so 1/2 is already an upgrade and given his additional effects he is a nice receptacle for them.  Thopters are quite easy to spam a lot of.  Even easier than saprolings.

DumasAG

FindingHeart8 said:

wereotter said:

Sai, Master Thopterist 

Other leaders have a larger body than the tokens they replace. Sai is a 1/2 on the ground replacing 1/1 fliers. (Although he does gain flying one he has 2 or more reinforcements)  This legendary feels like he should have been a 2/2 instead of a 1/2

at first I thought this was a really good card, then I reread it and caught the "cast" part.

The reinforce trigger functions different than the leader trigger correct?  Say I cast Ornithopter, which is both a thopter and a cast artifact, would it be reinforced once or twice?

Would it's "Activate 3" ability weaken it if it lost a reinforcement?  Or just lower the reinforcement counter on the creature?

If the reinforcement buffs are permanent, with no fluctuation in it's power or toughness except for increasing, I could see why they kept it at 1. 

This draws a ton of cards. It'll be fine.

wereotter

James13 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

at first I thought this was a really good card, then I reread it and caught the "cast" part.

The reinforce trigger functions different than the leader trigger correct?  Say I cast Ornithopter, which is both a thopter and a cast artifact, would it be reinforced once or twice?

Would it's "Activate 3" ability weaken it if it lost a reinforcement?  Or just lower the reinforcement counter on the creature?

If the reinforcement buffs are permanent, with no fluctuation in it's power or toughness except for increasing, I could see why they kept it at 1. 

Casting Ornithopter would reinforce him once via the cast trigger.  Ornithopter is not a token and not subject to Leader.  The Ornithopter will stay on the board.

Losing a reinforcement reduces the stats associated with the reinforcement.

The only thopter token in game is a 1/1, so 1/2 is already an upgrade and given his additional effects he is a nice receptacle for them.  Thopters are quite easy to spam a lot of.  Even easier than saprolings.

I't'll be good in Saheeli, but I'm not sure that the other Origins cards, in general, are good enough on their own to justify the +1 toughness as a legitimate power increase for this card, especially when a leader like Slimefoot turns 1/1 saprolings into 4/5

Mburn7

wereotter said:

James13 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

at first I thought this was a really good card, then I reread it and caught the "cast" part.

The reinforce trigger functions different than the leader trigger correct?  Say I cast Ornithopter, which is both a thopter and a cast artifact, would it be reinforced once or twice?

Would it's "Activate 3" ability weaken it if it lost a reinforcement?  Or just lower the reinforcement counter on the creature?

If the reinforcement buffs are permanent, with no fluctuation in it's power or toughness except for increasing, I could see why they kept it at 1. 

Casting Ornithopter would reinforce him once via the cast trigger.  Ornithopter is not a token and not subject to Leader.  The Ornithopter will stay on the board.

Losing a reinforcement reduces the stats associated with the reinforcement.

The only thopter token in game is a 1/1, so 1/2 is already an upgrade and given his additional effects he is a nice receptacle for them.  Thopters are quite easy to spam a lot of.  Even easier than saprolings.

I't'll be good in Saheeli, but I'm not sure that the other Origins cards, in general, are good enough on their own to justify the +1 toughness as a legitimate power increase for this card, especially when a leader like Slimefoot turns 1/1 saprolings into 4/5

Slimefoot's secondary abilities aren't as good, though, and he doesn't have flying (easier to block) and there are less saproling generators than thopter generators.  I mean, could you imagine Sai as a 4/5 with TSN out?  I mean, even at a 2/3 that would get insanely huge insanely fast.

I think he looks like a perfectly fine build-around rare.  And activate 3 is easy enough to hit that it should be pretty relevant (and half mana of every draw is pretty awesome too)

Stormcrow

FindingHeart8 said:

at first I thought this was a really good card, then I reread it and caught the "cast" part.

The reinforce trigger functions different than the leader trigger correct?  Say I cast Ornithopter, which is both a thopter and a cast artifact, would it be reinforced once or twice?

Would it's "Activate 3" ability weaken it if it lost a reinforcement?  Or just lower the reinforcement counter on the creature?

If the reinforcement buffs are permanent, with no fluctuation in it's power or toughness except for increasing, I could see why they kept it at 1. 

You're confusing him with Squee who is very non-standard for a "leader" creature. Or else you're just fuzzy on how the "leader" mechanic works. If you cast Ornithopter, you get an Ornithopter, and this guy also gets reinforced, once, which will increase his P/T by 1/2 and his reinforcements counter by 1.

If you also have a Thopter Spy Network out, when it triggers and you get four thopter tokens, instead of getting the tokens, this guy will get +4/+8 and his reinforcement count will increase by 4.

If you trigger his activated ability, and the only reinforcements you have on the board are the stack of this guy, he'll get -1/-2, lose 1 reinforcement count, and you'll draw a card and give it half its mana.

He's not gonna be an auto-include into every Thopter deck but that card draw is nice and the instant mana gain is very nice. Also he's pretty much always gonna be flying so it's not like you really lose anything; a little extra toughness on your thopter stack is mostly irrelevant but it doesn't hurt.

Just in general I feel like this new set is moving into some more interesting design space - token decks look very strong but there's also a lot of token-deck hate. Should be interesting.

TheExaminer

wereotter said:

Sai, Master Thopterist 

Other leaders have a larger body than the tokens they replace. Sai is a 1/2 on the ground replacing 1/1 fliers. (Although he does gain flying one he has 2 or more reinforcements)  This legendary feels like he should have been a 2/2 instead of a 1/2

Slimefoot might be too strong in my opinion. Grows too fast with all those spore swarms, and Sai with thopters would be even more ridiculous in Saheeli or any UW deck (Sram's expertise).

FindingHeart8

Stormcrow said:

FindingHeart8 said:

at first I thought this was a really good card, then I reread it and caught the "cast" part.

The reinforce trigger functions different than the leader trigger correct?  Say I cast Ornithopter, which is both a thopter and a cast artifact, would it be reinforced once or twice?

Would it's "Activate 3" ability weaken it if it lost a reinforcement?  Or just lower the reinforcement counter on the creature?

If the reinforcement buffs are permanent, with no fluctuation in it's power or toughness except for increasing, I could see why they kept it at 1. 

You're confusing him with Squee who is very non-standard for a "leader" creature. Or else you're just fuzzy on how the "leader" mechanic works. If you cast Ornithopter, you get an Ornithopter, and this guy also gets reinforced, once, which will increase his P/T by 1/2 and his reinforcements counter by 1.

If you also have a Thopter Spy Network out, when it triggers and you get four thopter tokens, instead of getting the tokens, this guy will get +4/+8 and his reinforcement count will increase by 4.

If you trigger his activated ability, and the only reinforcements you have on the board are the stack of this guy, he'll get -1/-2, lose 1 reinforcement count, and you'll draw a card and give it half its mana.

He's not gonna be an auto-include into every Thopter deck but that card draw is nice and the instant mana gain is very nice. Also he's pretty much always gonna be flying so it's not like you really lose anything; a little extra toughness on your thopter stack is mostly irrelevant but it doesn't hurt.

Just in general I feel like this new set is moving into some more interesting design space - token decks look very strong but there's also a lot of token-deck hate. Should be interesting.

you're correct in that I haven't really dabbled with the Leader ability much yet (hasn't been in the cards for me, literally, I have no leader cards yet lol).

However the card may not work as you think it should, if he functions as it reads.

"Casting" in paper mtg only triggers when it is cast from your hand (or command zone for edh but we wont get into that here).  Sisay reads that she "creates" 4 thopters, which should translate to "put into the battlefield," which would not cause Sai's ability to trigger.

Thopter spy network is confusing because it reads "summon," which is paper mtg's old 1990-1998's wording for "cast," but the card technically doesn't cast, and functions just like Sisay's "put into the battlefield," effect.  So that's a coin toss as to whether it'll work or not.

As the cards function, neither Thopter Spy Network or Sisay should cause Sai's reinforcement ability to trigger.  However, it's possible no one in Octagon has played mtg that long, or knows the technical differentiation between the words, so it's also possible they'll all work and it'll be a nice addition to a Hangerback Walker deck.  But Octagon has been actively trying to follow the rules of paper magic with the new cards so...

...I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens

wereotter

When it comes to thopter generation, I would say it's about on par with saprolings, at least when you look at putting out Slimefoot, Verdant Force, and Tendershoot Dryad. Consider that those two creatures are equivalent to one Thopter Spy Network in that the combination will net you 5 saprolings every round. Additionally Slimefoots abilities aren't bad as when you activate to lose a reinforcement, you're draining life and weakening your opponent's creatures.

Sai at best is breaking even with Thopter Spy Network as you lose the card draw from your thopters dealing damage in combat to have him lose a thopter reinforcement from himself to draw you a card and give it mana, something you might have done if it was in your hand already. And after that one card and Saheeli, the other cards that make thopters from Origins just aren't that impressive. I don't see people in platinum suddenly pulling out their Whirler Rogues to make thopter decks because they pulled this guy. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still argue that he appears just slightly underwhelming considering other leaders let you trade up your tokens.

Mark_Tedin

Why not just "destroy a support"?

Brakkis

Mark_Tedin said:

Why not just "destroy a support"?

Because there are other types of supports; lands, for instance.

Volrak

FindingHeart8 said:

However the card may not work as you think it should, if he functions as it reads.

"Casting" in paper mtg only triggers when it is cast from your hand (or command zone for edh but we wont get into that here).  Sisay reads that she "creates" 4 thopters, which should translate to "put into the battlefield," which would not cause Sai's ability to trigger.

Right.  So anything making thopter tokens won't (or at least shouldn't) trigger Sai's "Whenever you cast" ability, but will trigger his "Leader" ability, same as how the other Leaders work.

wereotter said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I still argue that he appears just slightly underwhelming considering other leaders let you trade up your tokens.

If you compare Sai with Slimefoot in the role that Slimefoot excels (beat-down) then Sai definitely underwhelms.  But that's not his role.  His role is card draw and mana.  If you keep him reinforced and make sure you can reliably hit those activate gems, there's half your mana problem for the whole game solved, plus extra cards to boot.  Seems great for rare.

khurram

I'm also intrigued by Sai, the master thopterist. And I agree the point of him is not exactly to trade up your thopter stacks in terms of power but to trigger that activate ability frequently enough. Drawing cards and giving them half of their Mana cost seems useful.