Creature Destroyed by In Bolas Clutches [Fixed]

mrixl2520

I was playing Teferi vs Teferi in an event today and doing poorly. My opponent had three creatures out and cast In Bolas Clutches. I expected it to do nothing as they were at max creatures, instead my one and only creature was destroyed. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bug, but the card doesn't mention this result

//Edited Title -Brigby

Mburn7

mrixl2520 said:

I was playing Teferi vs Teferi in an event today and doing poorly. My opponent had three creatures out and cast In Bolas Clutches. I expected it to do nothing as they were at max creatures, instead my one and only creature was destroyed. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bug, but the card doesn't mention this result

This is the same thing that happens with Lay Claim and Admiral Beckett.  The game steals the creature first, than asks you to replace one of your own (if you have 3 out).  If you say no, it destroys it (fun fact, this will trigger Journey to Eternity).  It isn't a bug per se, but it definitely doesn't feel right.

bk1234

[MOD NOTE] Updated to indicate this card is working as intended. [/MOD NOTE]

Laeuftbeidir

bken1234 said:

[MOD NOTE] Updated to indicate this card is working as intended. [/MOD NOTE]

We

 never had an official statement regarding the rules for stealing creatures. Regarding all the bugs that never have been fixed, It's as likely that this is a bug or a feature! This update might prevent such a statement

Please change it back to the original title, so @brigby, @Tombstone or @LakeStone can reach out to verify whether this is intendet or not.

Tilwin90

*Whispers something about comprehensive rules yet again, then walks away*

techmarine5

Shouldn't it work in the same manner as the temp steals? I agree it would make the cards significantly stronger, but it would maintain consistency. I believe that is why the perma steal from SOI said only if you control 2 or less.

bk1234

@techmarine5 temp steals are entirely different concepts. They allow a 4th and 5th creature slot (I've never tried for 6). In Bolas' Clutches is intended to be a perm steal "unless...." thus it should work like a perm steal unless conditions are met. I love the card and it's in all of my blue historic decks and only once in all the times I've used it has the creature been returned. 

Regarding permanent steals -- I did a bug report on Lay Claim a long time ago and it and it was pointed out to me that this card is worded differently than previous steals. The change was a feature, not a bug. Steal cards since have been the same. 

If Beckett didn't destroy with a full hand, most people who paid cash for her would not have purchased her. 

The same principle applies to cards that steal to hand. Cards prior to XLN didn't fill the hand past 6. Most of the cards since do. 

Same principle in the other direction with bounce -- bounce cards before XLN would not activate if the hand was full, now they destroy. 

Sarahschmara

While temporarily stealing multiple creatures when one already had a full board was, at one point, possible with willbreaker, it no longer allows more than one extra creature. In addition, if one has two creatures and borrows a third, one no longer has the option of playing one’s on third creature. 

bk1234

Sarahschmara said:

While temporarily stealing multiple creatures when one already had a full board was, at one point, possible with willbreaker, it no longer allows more than one extra creature. In addition, if one has two creatures and borrows a third, one no longer has the option of playing one’s on third creature. 

I noticed this in RotGP and meant to do a bug report. Thanks for the reminder @Sarahschmara

I’ll get it up this afternoon! 

Gunmix25

Laeuftbeidir said:

bken1234 said:

[MOD NOTE] Updated to indicate this card is working as intended. [/MOD NOTE]

We

 never had an official statement regarding the rules for stealing creatures. Regarding all the bugs that never have been fixed, It's as likely that this is a bug or a feature! This update might prevent such a statement

Please change it back to the original title, so @brigby, @Tombstone or @LakeStone can reach out to verify whether this is intendet or not.

Actually yes we have, Brigby made a clear statement awhile back in regards to the whole lay claim "conspiracy" and how it differs from other cards that steal. Hence why this is being treated as common knowledge. Though no official statement regarding Bolas's clutches has been made but imho I don't think they need to be making repeated official statements on effects that they have already covered. But if it helps...

@Brigby  

I Summon you forth o' genie of information and clarification!

Laeuftbeidir

Well, then I stand corrected by a classical case of "no comprehensive, consistent rules, at best answers on page xx of thread yy buried in time".

You can't remember all the different cases thanks!

Mburn7

bken1234 said:

@techmarine5 temp steals are entirely different concepts. They allow a 4th and 5th creature slot (I've never tried for 6). In Bolas' Clutches is intended to be a perm steal "unless...." thus it should work like a perm steal unless conditions are met. I love the card and it's in all of my blue historic decks and only once in all the times I've used it has the creature been returned. 

Regarding permanent steals -- I did a bug report on Lay Claim a long time ago and it and it was pointed out to me that this card is worded differently than previous steals. The change was a feature, not a bug. Steal cards since have been the same. 

If Beckett didn't destroy with a full hand, most people who paid cash for her would not have purchased her. 

The same principle applies to cards that steal to hand. Cards prior to XLN didn't fill the hand past 6. Most of the cards since do. 

Same principle in the other direction with bounce -- bounce cards before XLN would not activate if the hand was full, now they destroy. 

As much as I don't love the idea to destroy stuff if the board is full, it at least makes sense on the steal cards (since otherwise they would be extremely difficult to use effectively).

The steal to hand cards giving you more than 6 cards was a bug that has been fixed (at least for Etali), or at least that's what we were told after 2.7 came out.

Bounce destroying with a full hand bothers me to no end.  It makes the cards exponentially more powerful, even though they are still costed as if they functioned "normally."  Bounce cards should never destroy the creature, or if they do they should cost 2-3 times as much as they do now.

DBJones

I think the way the newer bounce and permanent steal cards work is fine. I think it would be better if the permanent steal cards just put the creature directly into the stealer's graveyard for consistency with all other creature replacement. For bounce, either have it put the card on top of the opponent's library if their hand is full, or tweak the hand limit to only apply to draw and fetch, then auto-discard any cards past 6 a player has at the end of their turn. Allowing fetch to work the same way probably wouldn't be a big issue (plus it would let the AI use HUF properly far more often), but drawing past 6 would be a bad idea here considering how much draw there is in this game.

InfiniteChaos

I have been playing TDW (current coalition event) and have noticed that the mechanics of IBC has changed... it no longer asks which card to replace when you have 3 creatures.  It just goes out onto the board. 

I just lost a match because it didn't pull the opponent's first card as I had 3 creatures out.  This has happened to me before - I forgot about needing to have less than 3...

The only time I was able to get the card to work was when I had less than 3 creatures on the board... is this a new change to the mechanics of the card?