Teferi - Spiraling Time; Bug or Feature?

Brakkis

Here today to discuss Teferi's first ability, Spiraling Time, at rank 4 and hopefully determine if it's current issues are an intended feature, or a bug.

Spiraling Time - Return target creature that costs 12 or less to your opponent's hand and increase its cost by 5.

The issues are as stated:

1. This ability currently functions similarly to pre-Ixalan bounce mechanics in that it requires the AI's hand to have 5 cards or less. If the hand is full, you can not bounce a creature, including tokens.

* Why might this be a bug?
 - Because the AI has no such limitation with the ability and can bounce your creature with a full hand.
 - As you can see in the description, no such limitation is mentioned.

2. This ability currently determines whether it can bounce a creature based on it's current cost rather than its base cost.

 * This may be intended in the event that the AI has a creature with say, a cost of 6, so that you can only bounce it twice with this ability.
  - However, it also results in a creature like Ghalta being permanently bounce-able.
  - Likewise, any creature that Transforms or Melds; for example, Ulrich or Bruna/Gisela, can also be bounced with the ability once it Transforms or Melds, regardless of how many times you've bounced it.

So I ask you, is this behavior intended? I post here and not the bugs forums because I don't actually know if this is a bug or if it's intentional.

Mburn7

For point 1, I would argue that it is in fact working properly and the Ixalan bounce spells are the ones that are bugged.  There is a huge difference between a bounce and a kill, and turning a bounce into a kill spell is definitely wrong (since they are usually costed cheaper than a kill spell, often come with bonus effects, and are Blue, which is not supposed to have direct removal).

Point 2 is a little harder to determine, since how it is programmed makes sense in a vacuum (so you can't infinitely return a single cheap creature), but it definitely interacts wrong with cards with cost reductions.  I think it's ok as is, as long as they keep its interactions in mind when designing future cost reduction cards (maybe put a minimum cost in that would increase each time it is targeted)

ElfNeedsFood

On point 2, the "Casting cost" of stuff is really unclear...  Especially when you have more than one member on the stack with different costs...  When it's brought into play without casting, what's it's cost?  What do tokens "cost" (see other thread), especially if one spell creates multiple tokens?

DBJones

Clearly the bouncing working differently for the player than the AI is a bug. Considering it costs the same as Ob Nixilis and Nicol Bolas's kill abilities, and has the cost restriction in addition, either way would be fine with me.

I also think being able to hit creature's who have their cost reduced to below 12 is fine. There's enough things it can't hit, and cost reduction having a downside in certain circumstances seems interesting to me.

Imbrium

I am fine with his interaction with Ghalta.  It's a risk to take into consideration before casting multiples.  That it's had that affect whether intended or no, is interesting and adds a new element.  
Mostly though it's localized to Ghalta because most other cards don't have that dramatic an affect.  It will also affect flipped Ulrich, which is also fine by me.  Something to stop him in his tracks.
Although you need to take it into consideration when supports reduce the cost of other cards in hand too. 

I actually think that it's clever that they increase the cost of the cards after you've bounced them.  That way it's not just you sitting on Teferi's first and blithely skate through.  It means you have to be careful about when you deploy this.  And also you can manage that 12 stack of Josu Vess' zombies too.

BATMAN1

Ok maybe, but in standard there aren’t many creatures you would see facing a level 60 or level 53( I believe) Teferi that cost 12 or less to start with. 

Elektrophorus

Imbrium said:

I am fine with his interaction with Ghalta.  It's a risk to take into consideration before casting multiples.

You mean just one. Ghalta has 12 power by himself, so he will reduce his own cost to 12.

DBJones

You have to cast a second one for his price on board to change though. A creature's cost listed in play is what you payed to cast that creatures. Reinforcing a creature overwrites that cost to the new cost you payed. At least, that's how I've seen it work.

Brakkis

Nope. You can just straight up bounce the first Ghalta that comes in to play. No need to reinforce. The bounce converts its cost to 17 but then because hes not on the field it goes up to 24 anyway and overwrites the 17 which means the next Ghalta is getting bounced right away too.

DBJones

Was anything else in play on your opponent's side? Ghalta's cost is reduced by the power of all creatures you have out, not just itself. My previous comment was only relevant if Ghalta was cast on an empty (or less than 12 power) board. I don't have Ghalta (yet), so I don't know how it works for sure.

Brakkis

Ghalta being out reduces his cost by 12, making him 12, making him targetable by the ability. For whatever reason, it also makes the Ghalta currently on the field, by himself, a 12 cost creature.

wereotter

Mburn7 said:

For point 1, I would argue that it is in fact working properly and the Ixalan bounce spells are the ones that are bugged.  There is a huge difference between a bounce and a kill, and turning a bounce into a kill spell is definitely wrong (since they are usually costed cheaper than a kill spell, often come with bonus effects, and are Blue, which is not supposed to have direct removal).

I really, REALLY wish the game would just implement hand size limitations differently in order to take blue's power to the correct level, as a note related to this comment.

Letting River's Rebuke and other bounce effects destroy creatures if the hand is full is very out of the color pie for blue. It should have the opponent take all the cards back to hand, and then at the end of their next turn discard the cards from the bottom of hand until they're at the max allowable cards. I remember seeing extra cards in hand early on in the game, but it seems like that doesn't ever happen anymore.

Brakkis

Or just bounce them to the top of the library