About newer character (Wishlist)

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  • TensuunTensuun Posts: 98 Match Maker
    JDFiend said:
    ZeiramMR said: 
    My objection of Red Skull as a playable character instead of a boss is that this game has Essential characters for events. I personally wouldn't roster him, but it is also a PR problem waiting to happen for them that a Skull PVP would be "forcing players to play a nazi".
    But other games have playable Red Skull like Strike Force and Future Fight. Academy has a recruitable Zemo. Haven't heard any outcry over there. Why would there be one here?
    tl;dr: Strike Force lets you choose characters other than Red Skull, and goes out of its way to "explain" his presence.

    Strike Force occasionally has events that force you to use characters from a faction (e.g. Hydra), and thanks to extremely slow beginner-unfriendly grind mechanics effectively forces you to use Crossbones in almost everything for the first two months. But, while Crossbones is a Hydra goon, the version of him portrayed in MSF is that of a bloodthirsty, violent, misanthropic grunt. He states at one point that he's excited for the game's premise giving him an excuse to kill the Red Skull a lot; he's clearly not an advocate of Nazi ideology.

    At the point in the "story" when the Red Skull joins your team, a brief dialogue shows Fury and Widow being completely disgusted by the idea of sharing plans with a white-supremacist. So there's a convenient wrapper in place for the player being allowed to command a Nazi to do something, and for that something not to be overtly suicidal.

    I don't know about Future Fight.

    Academy features Helmut Zemo, who is much less indelibly linked to the Nazi party. In the comics, his obsession with his own family's history occasionally leads him to work with Nazis and/or Hydra, but this is almost always retconned later as some deeper game; Zemo wields Hydra forces as a tool to accomplish his own ends, usually power/control at a large scale. When he has it, he's ideologically more like Thanos than Red Skull: he's certainly a pretty big existential threat to a lot of people, but at least he doesn't discriminate too much.

    Besides which, Movie Zemo isn't (from what is shown, at least) any kind of Nazi at all, and doesn't even seem especially upset about whatever might have happened to his dad. Instead, he has a vendetta against superhumans and vigilantes in general, and it's tied to grief over his wife and kids.

    MPQ generally uses traditional, 616(-inspired?) representations of its characters and new events come rarely. It'd be an uphill battle to introduce Red Skull in a context like "he's not really a white-supremacist, he actually just wants to kill everybody" or "yeah he's a total creep, but he's helping us fight a couple dozen other Red Skulls and they're even worse".
  • JDFiendJDFiend Posts: 20 Just Dropped In
    The thing I really don't get is Magneto. So much of what he is kind of built on Hitleresque rhetoric. He is a racist/specieist with the whole homo-superior thing which is just a step from ethnic cleansing. He has committed genocide - especially with the whole Genosha thing. He is a skilled orator that radicalise youth into forming an army. He is on a quest to find a homeland (or lebensraum as Hitler called it) to grow his nation. He is just like the mutant version of a nationalistic party leader. He's just softened some extent through our sympathy for the X-men but it is there. 

    Are you all fine being forced to play a villain that almost embodies most of the principles and methods of Nazism to the extent that he is almost an allegory to nationalist/fascist agenda, but isn't actually labelled as one? Or not? If so, why? Where is the cut off for you? Why is one fine and the other not? Is it that one is entirely fictional, whereas the other is fictional but based in the fictional division of a real-life group? Is it as you've never read Magneto in those kind of terms? Is just as Nazis is a bad term? I'm genuinely perplexed.  
  • JDFiendJDFiend Posts: 20 Just Dropped In
    Tensuun said:
    JDFiend said:
    ZeiramMR said: 
    My objection of Red Skull as a playable character instead of a boss is that this game has Essential characters for events. I personally wouldn't roster him, but it is also a PR problem waiting to happen for them that a Skull PVP would be "forcing players to play a nazi".
    But other games have playable Red Skull like Strike Force and Future Fight. Academy has a recruitable Zemo. Haven't heard any outcry over there. Why would there be one here?
    tl;dr: Strike Force lets you choose characters other than Red Skull, and goes out of its way to "explain" his presence.

    Strike Force occasionally has events that force you to use characters from a faction (e.g. Hydra), and thanks to extremely slow beginner-unfriendly grind mechanics effectively forces you to use Crossbones in almost everything for the first two months. But, while Crossbones is a Hydra goon, the version of him portrayed in MSF is that of a bloodthirsty, violent, misanthropic grunt. He states at one point that he's excited for the game's premise giving him an excuse to kill the Red Skull a lot; he's clearly not an advocate of Nazi ideology.

    At the point in the "story" when the Red Skull joins your team, a brief dialogue shows Fury and Widow being completely disgusted by the idea of sharing plans with a white-supremacist. So there's a convenient wrapper in place for the player being allowed to command a Nazi to do something, and for that something not to be overtly suicidal.

    I don't know about Future Fight.

    Academy features Helmut Zemo, who is much less indelibly linked to the Nazi party. In the comics, his obsession with his own family's history occasionally leads him to work with Nazis and/or Hydra, but this is almost always retconned later as some deeper game; Zemo wields Hydra forces as a tool to accomplish his own ends, usually power/control at a large scale. When he has it, he's ideologically more like Thanos than Red Skull: he's certainly a pretty big existential threat to a lot of people, but at least he doesn't discriminate too much.

    Besides which, Movie Zemo isn't (from what is shown, at least) any kind of Nazi at all, and doesn't even seem especially upset about whatever might have happened to his dad. Instead, he has a vendetta against superhumans and vigilantes in general, and it's tied to grief over his wife and kids.

    MPQ generally uses traditional, 616(-inspired?) representations of its characters and new events come rarely. It'd be an uphill battle to introduce Red Skull in a context like "he's not really a white-supremacist, he actually just wants to kill everybody" or "yeah he's a total creep, but he's helping us fight a couple dozen other Red Skulls and they're even worse".
    Ah okay, cheers for the explanation. Dipped into them but never really played them for long or got that far before I was bored. 
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 2,730 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm torn as to whether or not this thread meets the requirements of Godwin's Law or not...
  • skittledaddyskittledaddy Posts: 339 Mover and Shaker
    In addition to those already listed:

    Scorpion
    Multiple Man
    Chameleon
    Blob
    Wonderman
    ....
    X-Babies ;-)
  • DormammuDormammu Posts: 3,379 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2018
    I don't see why Marvel should have to shy away from Red Skull being a Nazi. Nazi Germany is a part of our world's history - there's no point in denying it existed or in shying away from using it to define the history of a character like Red Skull or Captain America. It's not like Marvel is endorsing Nazism or communism or anything of that ilk by doing so.

    In fact, I don't think Marvel was shying away from the Nazi's in making the Red Skull 'more Hydra than Nazi' in his First Avenger appearance. They needed to establish a group of bad guys that could hold relevance in the modern day to loom over their phase 1 & 2 films; Nazi's weren't going to do that. Marvel didn't even have to root Hydra to the Nazi's at all and could have established them outside of Cap's first film, but they did. Honestly, Nazi's-as-bad-guys has been overdone; that war ended 75 years ago and it's getting harder and harder to utilize a Nazi background in the modern day just because of the generational gap which continues to grow. I thought the Nazi's and Hydra were well-handled in First Avenger.

    So, all that being said, I say they absolutely should add Red Skull as a playable character.
  • TensuunTensuun Posts: 98 Match Maker
    ZootSax said:
    ZeiramMR said:

    My objection of Red Skull as a playable character instead of a boss is that this game has Essential characters for events. I personally wouldn't roster him, but it is also a PR problem waiting to happen for them that a Skull PVP would be "forcing players to play a nazi". 
    Eh, the MCU version of Red Skull would likely be the one they went with, given the game's past character release history, so since the first Cap movie went out of its way to show the Red Skull breaking Hydra away from any affiliation with Nazi Germany, I kind of feel this is a non-issue.





    So... anyway.

    Back when it was a thing, I kept voting for Loki (Agent of Asgard) and later Loki (Sorcerer Supreme) to be in MPQ, but it's not really a thing anymore so I've mostly given that up. I should just be happy Venom (Agent Venom) showed up after I wrote in a vote for him.  :D

    Wraith (Yuri Watanabe) would be a fun tie-in with the new Spider-Man game, and make me a little less sad about not owning a PlayStation (they would need at least two more games I'm interested in to make the console feel worth it).

    Most of Marvel's better villains already exist in some form in MPQ, plus Gorgon and Daken are also here, but there's room for variants. Maybe it's just me, but Doctor Doom (Infamous Iron Man) might've been interesting. I suspect once he's done bringing the F4 back he'll return to resenting/hating Richards for some lame reason or other, though, and that'll be the end of that chapter.

    I guess Mister Sinister (Nathaniel Essex) would be the Marvel villain I'm most surprised isn't in yet, though I'm having trouble making myself feel interested in the idea....
  • Shintok17Shintok17 Posts: 620 Critical Contributor
    Mister Sinister (Nathaniel Essex)
  • dragonreaderdragonreader Posts: 70 Match Maker
    Off the top of my head:

    Cable
    Bishop
    Sabertooth
    Emma Frost
    Namor

    I'd also like a 5* Deadpool


  • dragonreaderdragonreader Posts: 70 Match Maker
    Oh and maybe Hellcat
  • kk3thesskk3thess Posts: 189 Tile Toppler
    Still waiting for Mantis on this game
  • charmbotscharmbots Posts: 87 Match Maker
    edited July 2018
    I’d like to see these released as 5* characters:
    Beta Ray Bill
    Richard Rider
    Uatu
    Adam Warlock
    Red Skull


    Other characters:
    Cable
    Legion
    Polaris
    Emma Frost
    Mysterio
    Mr Sinister
    Kitty Pryde and Lockheed
    Bishop
    Nebula
    Fenris
    Blob
    Sabertooth
  • FeloniusFelonius Posts: 289 Mover and Shaker
    I know it's a running gag here on the forums, but I'd actually really like to see Dazzler in any form.  Also Kitty Pryde (Shadowcat) with Lockheed (Pet Dragon) Support.

    I'd also love to play the classic line-up of Power Pack:
    Alex Power (Gee)
    Julie Power (Lightspeed)
    Jack Power (Mass Master)
    Katie Power (Energizer)
    Franklin Richards (Tattletale)

    They could make Friday (Kymellian Smartship) and Kofi Whitemane (Kymellian Cousin) matching Supports. 

  • Roland8Roland8 Posts: 25 Just Dropped In
    If they do another April Fools character, I vote for Slapstick (Living Cartoon) 😅
  • ZootSaxZootSax Posts: 1,579 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tensuun said:



    So... anyway.

    Never before have I seen an animated GIF so quickly get a thread back on topic :)

    As for the original question, I think Nebula is the character I most want to see added....which I wouldn’t have expected before I sat down and thought about it.  Not that there aren’t plenty of other good suggestions here...
  • thedarkphoenixthedarkphoenix Posts: 416 Mover and Shaker
    I really want more characters that do trippy things added to the game, maybe someone that steal abilities, swap your character out. manipulate the board or just new abilities added.
  • jameshjamesh Posts: 1,362 Chairperson of the Boards
    JDFiend said:
    The thing I really don't get is Magneto. So much of what he is kind of built on Hitleresque rhetoric. He is a racist/specieist with the whole homo-superior thing which is just a step from ethnic cleansing. He has committed genocide - especially with the whole Genosha thing. He is a skilled orator that radicalise youth into forming an army. He is on a quest to find a homeland (or lebensraum as Hitler called it) to grow his nation. He is just like the mutant version of a nationalistic party leader. He's just softened some extent through our sympathy for the X-men but it is there. 

    Are you all fine being forced to play a villain that almost embodies most of the principles and methods of Nazism to the extent that he is almost an allegory to nationalist/fascist agenda, but isn't actually labelled as one? Or not? If so, why? Where is the cut off for you? Why is one fine and the other not? Is it that one is entirely fictional, whereas the other is fictional but based in the fictional division of a real-life group? Is it as you've never read Magneto in those kind of terms? Is just as Nazis is a bad term? I'm genuinely perplexed.  
    There are some pretty big differences though.  The Nazis were the governing party in Germany, and targeted certain minorities as the cause of society's ills.  Magneto is a Jew that survived the Nazi holocaust and uses his powers to violently protect an oppressed minority.  At times, he's tried to create a new nation for that oppressed minority.

    Many of the stories featuring him question if his methods go too far (usually concluding that they do), and even have the character questioning himself at times.  At what point do you go from fighting a just war to protect your people to committing new atrocities?

    Maybe I just haven't read the right comics, but I don't ever remember seeing the same kind of nuance for stories about the Red Skull.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 2,845 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't think Magneto = Red Skull. The Red Skull is without the ability to feel compassion or empathy and his agendas are based upon hatred not preservation of anything.

    Lets not forget that Magneto as originally conceived was actually a metaphor for the Civil Rights Movement with him playing the role of Malcom X to Professor X's MLK. Magneto's stance, in the early days was that if mutants did not fight back they would be persecuted and possibly even subject to serious civil rights infringements. Of course he just sometimes came across as a cookie cutter bad guy as well, so not all his early appearances are in some grand scheme of mutant rights. The jewish/Holocaust element was introduced much later and was a ramping up of the rhetoric.

    The Red Skull however has always been framed in terms of his Nazi/racist beliefs. His motivation isn't a grey area.

    Magneto also stood trial in the comic books for his crimes twice, voluntarily, the first time (Uncanny X-Men #200) is interrupted by Fenris but the second time he is acquitted albeit by tampering with the results (X-men vs Avengers #4) fearing that if he was found guilty it would trigger a race war. So even when trying to do good he has always used questionable means.  The Red Skull would never subject himself to the judgment of others.
  • JDFiendJDFiend Posts: 20 Just Dropped In
    I am not saying Magneto and Red Skull are the same, only that Magneto and Nazism share a similar rhetoric and have similar goals. The similarity is present in some of their dialogue but as characters, they differ. 

    I never really bought the whole protect mutant kind thing Magneto tries to sell either. Always read that as a means or tool to further his ambition for power and conquest, just as I read Red Skull's whole Nazi thing as a justification for his homicidal and sociopathic tendencies. It's the lies they tell themselves and others. They way they cope with their actions and how they make sense of them. Not the real reason for them. It might be part of it, but it's not what is really driving them. People that seize power lie, especially when they trying to turn people to their cause. 

    I mean, again I'm not saying they are the same person, and these quotes are totally taken out of context. And its taken for a wiki so source might not be entirely reliable. But it kind shows how the two overlap in the ways that people are stating that Red Skull can't be a playable character. Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Notions of Racial Superiority ect. 

    Magneto:

    How they despise each other! It is only my will, my power, that keeps them working together as a team! But I ask not for friendship, or love! All I demand is fear, and blind obedience! For I am Magneto...mightiest of all the mutants! 

    You have the operating out fear and hate of a dictator. And the megalomania. 

    Greetings, X-Men. I bid you welcome to the site of your final battleground. You are going to die here, mutants. And neither your powers nor all your skills can save you from my wrathLook on me, X-Men for I am your oldest, deadliest foe. Master of the legion of evil mutants -- and soon to be lord of all the worldI -- am -- Magneto!

    His youth army, who he often willing sacrifices for his means, which is often stated to be used so he can be the lord of the world and rule over it. Or a Master. 

    Earth is now the dominion of mutantkind! At last homo sapiens will answer to homo superior... and bow down before Magneto!

    Racail superiority. And even a belittling of other into a lesser species - parasites and vermin and such. 

    My brothers and sisters...we must prepare. We must prepare to take what evolution has promised us. For the age of humanity ends now.

    Drawing on commonalities as a way to frame 'others' as different. The use of Eugenics as a justification for mutant superiority. 

    The X-Men ... The Avengers ... and soon the world -- All WITHIN MY GRASP!

    So, even other powered individuals that don't conform to his ideology is different or other. 

    Don't turn away or you may deny yourself the chance to see a miracle! Turn, my friends-- Look at him! Behold the creature who soon will make me Master of the World!!

    His quote page is just full of the idea of gaining mastery of the world. And its almost a textbook of Nazi ideology. 

    Red Skull: 

    Freedom is only for the one who rules! All others must be slaves!

    So he wants to be a lord and master.... *ahem* 

    I am your superior in every way! I am a member of the Master Race!

    Akin to Mag's homo superior idea. 

    None are left to hinder my plans now, none remain to rescue you. You are mine to control, 'Douglock.' And through you -- through the unstoppable power of your extra-terrestrial techno-virus -- the world will finally bow to the RED SKULL!

    Red's proclaim for world domination. The only difference in the rhetoric Red Skull is blunter, more open, he doesn't hide his ideas behind something. He more pantomime evil, than political nuance. And it's that that softens Mags. 

    Wherever there was injustice, tyranny, ruthlessness, the Red Skull was there leading the attack on the weak and helpless.

    Pure pantomime. He just doesn't have the pretence of doing it for something noble. That pretence is actually part of most nationalistic rhetorics, Germany is a nation of great people stabbed in the back by military let's throw stones at them and be great again ect. 

    I agree that Magneto often doubts his own actions, whereas Red Skull doesn't. But doesn't that make Magento all the worse, not excuse his actions? What's more evil - the one that knows they are it, but revels in - makes a show of it? Or the one that fears they are and does it anyway? The one that knows but doesn't stop themselves and tries to disguise it? 

    And even if we do take Magneto's words of protection at face value, does that mean it's okay to murder and incite terror to protect a minority? Or it's excusable if you express doubts about it after? Sorry, I hijacked that plane and shot all those people, but I am a homosexual transgendered Scientologist. 
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 2,845 Chairperson of the Boards
    A lot of those quotes are probably from his 60's/70's appearances where, like any other Marvel villain, conquering the world seemed to be a high priority for supervillains. You can probably find a dozen or so other Marvel villains who spewed similar nonsense (in fact I just checked and Doctor Doom wanted to conquer the world also with similar claims about "pruning weeds to let an Orchid flourish"). At least Magneto thinks he might have justification to do so. You have to remember that these stories were written after World War II and during the Cold War and Stan Lee and the like were probably heavilly influenced by the real life "supervillains" and villainous dialogue was no doubt adapted from such influences- not only the Nazi's but also the Communist threat of world domination. As supervillains were generally just plot points for single issue stories, their dialogue would get interchanged a lot.

    If we need proof that Magneto is not 100% "evil" then it comes when he helps stop Doom from "conquering the world" at one point, so these guys are pretty confused with their villainous nature. Magneto is probably more similar to Doom - they are both/have been Dictators but are treated in a sympathetic light as they "look after their citizens/own". Doom is considered a man of "honour" despite the fact he will quite happily launch a skyscraper in to space to try and kill the occupants. There is a story called "Emperor Doom" where he actually does conquer the world and makes it a better place, eliminating conflict and poverty! Magneto would have approved I think apart from the fact he would have been enslaved too.

    Magneto went through a period of redemption in the 80's where he turned his back on his past but he definitely has still been portrayed as capable of extreme measures if he believes the means justifies the end. It is also worth considering that there are many stories where Magneto is cast in the role of a freedom fighter - Age of Apocalypse being a famous one.

    I think what it comes down to for me is that the Red Skull is SO evil that there are numerous stories where other villains cannot stand him! Not only Magneto and Doom but even the Kingpin have all denounced his evilness and givebn him a good pummelling. The Skull tends to occupy a level of bad guy that is on the very bottom rung. Magneto may have dubious motives sometimes but he isn't evil incarnate.
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