Disabled Leaders [Fixed in 3.2]

Brakkis

Just curious why disabling a creature with Leader doesn't disable the Leader effect. If you disable any other creature, it shuts down every effect they might have. Creature gives haste? Not anymore. Gives hexproof? Not now it doesn't. Buffs other creatures? Nope.

Why do creatures with Leader continue to absorb incoming token creatures of their type even while disabled? Why is Leader exempt from being disabled?

//Edited Title -Brigby

Mburn7

So what do you think should happen?  Do the tokens come in separate and get absorbed when the leader is not disabled?  That would be odd.  Do the tokens stay separate forever?  That would obviously be wrong.

Not sure if this is a bug or a feature

Brakkis

The tokens would come in separate and be absorbed once the disable is gone. That wouldn't be odd in the slightest. It would follow the same behavior as if the Leader was played from hand and absorbed whatever tokens were in play at the time.

gogol666

I guess leader is treated as an evergreen ability and it makes sense to me

Tilwin90

gogol666 said:

I guess leader is treated as an evergreen ability and it makes sense to me

Evergreen abilities are shut down by disabling.

Did you notice the weird reordering that happens sometimes when you disable a vigilance creature for instance? 
Next time another creature enters the battlefield, a reordering happens as if the vigilance creature did not have vigilance.

Example: 
Cast Lyra - enters the battlefield as the only creature (1-Lyra, 2-NONE, 3-NONE)
Cast Gishath - enters the battleifeld as the first creature (1-Gishath, 2-Lyra, 3-NONE)
Opponent disables Gishath with Cast Out
Cast Zacama - enters the battlefield as the third creature, but also reorders Lyra and Gishath since now Gishath no longer has vigilance (1-Lyra, 2-Gishath, 3-Zacama)

Mburn7

Tilwin90 said:

gogol666 said:

I guess leader is treated as an evergreen ability and it makes sense to me

Evergreen abilities are shut down by disabling.

Did you notice the weird reordering that happens sometimes when you disable a vigilance creature for instance? 
Next time another creature enters the battlefield, a reordering happens as if the vigilance creature did not have vigilance.

Example: 
Cast Lyra - enters the battlefield as the only creature (1-Lyra, 2-NONE, 3-NONE)
Cast Gishath - enters the battleifeld as the first creature (1-Gishath, 2-Lyra, 3-NONE)
Opponent disables Gishath with Cast Out
Cast Zacama - enters the battlefield as the third creature, but also reorders Lyra and Gishath since now Gishath no longer has vigilance (1-Lyra, 2-Gishath, 3-Zacama)

That has existed as long as I've been playing (~2 years), so I'm not sure anymore if it is a bug or a feature.  It is super annoying, though, just not likely to be changed.

Furks

It does seem a bit odd true. But with the 3 creature limit it would also be really annoying if that wasn't how it worked 

Brakkis

Disable is supposed to be annoying. It shuts down how everything works. Except, apparently, Leader.

ZW2007-

I can assure you that if they change this so that the disabled leader doesn't absorb the tokens, we will be seeing lots of game crashes.

The leader ability states:
As this creature enters the battlefield, it exiles all tokens you control with any of the given subtypes and is reinforced for each token and token reinforcement it exiled.

If a token with any of the given subtypes would enter the battlefield under your control, this creature is reinforced instead.

So, if the leader is disabled and does not absorb the tokens, there is nothing to say that the leader will absorb them once it is no longer disabled.

Example scenario where a disabled leader does not absorb incoming tokens:
1. You have a disable Squee in play.
2. You cast Dragon Fodder to summon 2 1/1 Goblin tokens.
3. You now have a disable Squee and a 1/1 Goblin token reinforced once to make it a 2/2.
4. Squee becomes enabled because the disable effect was ended somehow.
5. You now have an enabled Squee and a Goblin token in play.
6. You cast another Dragon Fodder to summon 2 1/1 Goblin tokens.
7. Game crashes because both Squee and the existing stack of Goblin tokens try to reinforce when Dragon Fodder resolves.

Just my thoughts on the matter. They should leave well enough alone in this case. If the leader should absorb the tokens once it becomes enable, it makes almost no difference whether or not it absorbs them during a disable, or after it ends. In some cases, it is beneficial that a leader does absorb tokens while disabled. If Slimefoot is disabled via Claustrophobia, all Saproling tokens will reinforce him and not come into play in their own slot. This means you won't have a stack of Sapolings enabled and attacking you.

Brakkis

They should make the code so that when the Leader is no longer disabled, it absorbs the tokens on the board. The code already exists for situations where cards have an active effect on the board state that turns off or on depending on if the creature is disabled.

Whether it's activate gems or the creatures increases the cost of cards in your hand or prevents spells from being cast, if it enters the board disabled or is disabled, none of their effects are active. The moment they are no longer disabled, their persistent effect kicks in. I see absolutely no reason why this is any different from the Leader effect kicking in after the disable is broken.

Brakkis

@Tombstone Is there any update regarding the investigation of this behavior? Is this intended or not?

Yes, the last post here was over 30 days ago but this is still occurring in the game and we've heard nothing about issues regarding Leaders.

Kinesia

Furks said:

It does seem a bit odd true. But with the 3 creature limit it would also be really annoying if that wasn't how it worked 

It is an exception to normal functionality, sure, but I agree that it REALLY needs to stay this way or things get very messed up in practise because of the 3 creature limit. It's good gameplay that you can be disabled by castout or whatever, continue to build your leader (when you might otherwise have to discard the tokens) and then disenchant the CastOut and attack for the win. That's a _fun_ back and forth, compared to the frustration of having to throw tokens away.

[Deleted User]

Brakkis said:

They should make the code so that when the Leader is no longer disabled, it absorbs the tokens on the board. The code already exists for situations where cards have an active effect on the board state that turns off or on depending on if the creature is disabled.

Whether it's activate gems or the creatures increases the cost of cards in your hand or prevents spells from being cast, if it enters the board disabled or is disabled, none of their effects are active. The moment they are no longer disabled, their persistent effect kicks in. I see absolutely no reason why this is any different from the Leader effect kicking in after the disable is broken.

Agree with this

[Deleted User]

ZW2007- said:

I can assure you that if they change this so that the disabled leader doesn't absorb the tokens, we will be seeing lots of game crashes.

The leader ability states:
As this creature enters the battlefield, it exiles all tokens you control with any of the given subtypes and is reinforced for each token and token reinforcement it exiled.

If a token with any of the given subtypes would enter the battlefield under your control, this creature is reinforced instead.

So, if the leader is disabled and does not absorb the tokens, there is nothing to say that the leader will absorb them once it is no longer disabled.

Example scenario where a disabled leader does not absorb incoming tokens:
1. You have a disable Squee in play.
2. You cast Dragon Fodder to summon 2 1/1 Goblin tokens.
3. You now have a disable Squee and a 1/1 Goblin token reinforced once to make it a 2/2.
4. Squee becomes enabled because the disable effect was ended somehow.
5. You now have an enabled Squee and a Goblin token in play.
6. You cast another Dragon Fodder to summon 2 1/1 Goblin tokens.
7. Game crashes because both Squee and the existing stack of Goblin tokens try to reinforce when Dragon Fodder resolves.

Just my thoughts on the matter. They should leave well enough alone in this case. If the leader should absorb the tokens once it becomes enable, it makes almost no difference whether or not it absorbs them during a disable, or after it ends. In some cases, it is beneficial that a leader does absorb tokens while disabled. If Slimefoot is disabled via Claustrophobia, all Saproling tokens will reinforce him and not come into play in their own slot. This means you won't have a stack of Sapolings enabled and attacking you.

But very very afraid of this

Mburn7

ZW2007- said:

I can assure you that if they change this so that the disabled leader doesn't absorb the tokens, we will be seeing lots of game crashes.

The leader ability states:
As this creature enters the battlefield, it exiles all tokens you control with any of the given subtypes and is reinforced for each token and token reinforcement it exiled.

If a token with any of the given subtypes would enter the battlefield under your control, this creature is reinforced instead.

So, if the leader is disabled and does not absorb the tokens, there is nothing to say that the leader will absorb them once it is no longer disabled.

Example scenario where a disabled leader does not absorb incoming tokens:
1. You have a disable Squee in play.
2. You cast Dragon Fodder to summon 2 1/1 Goblin tokens.
3. You now have a disable Squee and a 1/1 Goblin token reinforced once to make it a 2/2.
4. Squee becomes enabled because the disable effect was ended somehow.
5. You now have an enabled Squee and a Goblin token in play.
6. You cast another Dragon Fodder to summon 2 1/1 Goblin tokens.
7. Game crashes because both Squee and the existing stack of Goblin tokens try to reinforce when Dragon Fodder resolves.

Just my thoughts on the matter. They should leave well enough alone in this case. If the leader should absorb the tokens once it becomes enable, it makes almost no difference whether or not it absorbs them during a disable, or after it ends. In some cases, it is beneficial that a leader does absorb tokens while disabled. If Slimefoot is disabled via Claustrophobia, all Saproling tokens will reinforce him and not come into play in their own slot. This means you won't have a stack of Sapolings enabled and attacking you.

I don't think this will be as big of an issue as you think.  The game can already handle having two of the same leader out at the same time (currently possible with Goblins and Zombies, I believe)

This would probably just do the same thing, where the new tokens reinforce whichever stack was on the board first (which would be the leader in this case)