Enemy Cascade Limiting (6/12/18)

FinnyMPQ

Good to hear from you again, @Demiurge_Will! Thanks for the added info 

Jaedenkaal

Also perhaps a subtle buff to Demolition, Recovery, and various other powers that destroy a bunch of tiles on the AI's turn.

crackninja

So we are now catering to the tinfoil hats who feel like they have been wronged by a fair system, by implementing an unfair system.  At least it's not a conspiracy, it's totally out in the open...
As noted, this inadvertantly acts as a subtle nerf to several characters, all for the benefit of what exactly?  There will still be mistrust, conspiracies, etc., and seeing code like this is part of the game honestly makes me less trusting of it overall.  Maybe there really is an "if im40 = true, set yellow_tile_nerf = true" statement in there somewhere.
The one positive is that if new players were actually quitting because of this, then they may stay a little longer.. until they decide that it's unfair that they pulled 4 straight red 2* wolverine covers from heroic tokens, and of course that's the only color of any 2* character they couldn't use.

sirwookieechris

crackninja said:

So we are now catering to the tinfoil hats who feel like they have been wronged by a fair system, by implementing an unfair system.  At least it's not a conspiracy, it's totally out in the open...
As noted, this inadvertantly acts as a subtle nerf to several characters, all for the benefit of what exactly?  There will still be mistrust, conspiracies, etc., and seeing code like this is part of the game honestly makes me less trusting of it overall.  Maybe there really is an "if im40 = true, set yellow_tile_nerf = true" statement in there somewhere.
The one positive is that if new players were actually quitting because of this, then they may stay a little longer.. until they decide that it's unfair that they pulled 4 straight red 2* wolverine covers from heroic tokens, and of course that's the only color of any 2* character they couldn't use.

So we shouldn’t cater to people who feel the game is unfair? And then you go on to mention that the game must be purposefully giving you useless covers?

JHawkInc

crackninja said:

So we are now catering to the tinfoil hats who feel like they have been wronged by a fair system, by implementing an unfair system.  At least it's not a conspiracy, it's totally out in the open...
As noted, this inadvertantly acts as a subtle nerf to several characters, all for the benefit of what exactly?  There will still be mistrust, conspiracies, etc., and seeing code like this is part of the game honestly makes me less trusting of it overall.  Maybe there really is an "if im40 = true, set yellow_tile_nerf = true" statement in there somewhere.
The one positive is that if new players were actually quitting because of this, then they may stay a little longer.. until they decide that it's unfair that they pulled 4 straight red 2* wolverine covers from heroic tokens, and of course that's the only color of any 2* character they couldn't use.

Well, obviously. The point isn't to have a fair system, it's to have a fun system. It's hardly a new thing in video games. 

Of course, given that you complain about this change to Cascades, and then immediately put on your own tinfoil hat to complain about being wronged by a fair system (RNG draw rates of character covers), I'm not sure there's any helping you.

But here's a link to a variety of examples of this kind of tinkering, if you want to read about how other games do it. https://www.polygon.com/2017/9/8/16263050/game-design-magic-tricks

LavaManLee

Demiurge_Will said:

No, I recognize that this change isn't going to address feedback on Fight for Wakanda. (We've taken that event out of rotation and hope to make some tweaks before we re-introduce it.)

This is the best news in the entire thread.  The topic line should have read "Fight for Wakanda out of rotation".  Thank you for listening!

crackninja

sirwookieechris said:

So we shouldn’t cater to people who feel the game is unfair? And then you go on to mention that the game must be purposefully giving you useless covers?

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was saying that the people that thought the cascades were unfair will find something else to latch on to, such as thinking the covers are rewarded unfairly.

Heartbreaksoup

HoundofShadow said:

Can we make the AI more intelligent? For examples, not matching own special tiles immediately after placing it on the same turn, letting it create a match-5.

Showing my age here, there was a game for the Atari 2600 called Warlord, and the three computer players had a special move that the human player couldn't do.  It was throwing the ball *behind* them at their own castle and occasionally killing their own king.  That use to madden me - it was less fun when the computer players did something so stupid.

I'm reminded of Warlord every time the AI matches its own special tile as soon as it places it.

crackninja

JHawkInc said:

Well, obviously. The point isn't to have a fair system, it's to have a fun system. It's hardly a new thing in video games. 

Of course, given that you complain about this change to Cascades, and then immediately put on your own tinfoil hat to complain about being wronged by a fair system (RNG draw rates of character covers), I'm not sure there's any helping you.

But here's a link to a variety of examples of this kind of tinkering, if you want to read about how other games do it. https://www.polygon.com/2017/9/8/16263050/game-design-magic-tricks

Again, I was expressing the next thing a conspiracy theorist might claim is rigged.  I hope none of it is rigged, and I have never complained about anything like this happening to me.
You do make a valid point that other games cheat and fudge things to make them more fun.  In a lot of cases this is done to beef up an ai that is woefully inept, to keep a level of challenge there, but yes, the game should be fun.
I guess the bottom line here is I've never once thrown my phone over a random cascade.  This seems like a waste of effort to me when there are clear and possibly easy fixes that could be implemented to make far more people happy, from the players to the devs, to customer support.

sirwookieechris

crackninja said:

sirwookieechris said:

So we shouldn’t cater to people who feel the game is unfair? And then you go on to mention that the game must be purposefully giving you useless covers?

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was saying that the people that thought the cascades were unfair will find something else to latch on to, such as thinking the covers are rewarded unfairly.

Oh, I got what you meant now. It confused me because people already complain about that other one. So the fact there are so many people in here complaining about “it’s their own fault of the noobs have a bad perception of the game” but then making topics about “I pulled 1000 LL tokens and only got 11% 5*, the game is rigged!” shows how nearsighted some people are.

 I don’t get the anger here. Devs did something nice for the players. Maybe they had an ulterior motive- to boost new player retention, but it still remains a player positive change. Say thanks and move on.

JHawkInc

crackninja said:

JHawkInc said:

Well, obviously. The point isn't to have a fair system, it's to have a fun system. It's hardly a new thing in video games. 

Of course, given that you complain about this change to Cascades, and then immediately put on your own tinfoil hat to complain about being wronged by a fair system (RNG draw rates of character covers), I'm not sure there's any helping you.

But here's a link to a variety of examples of this kind of tinkering, if you want to read about how other games do it. https://www.polygon.com/2017/9/8/16263050/game-design-magic-tricks

Again, I was expressing the next thing a conspiracy theorist might claim is rigged.  I hope none of it is rigged, and I have never complained about anything like this happening to me.
You do make a valid point that other games cheat and fudge things to make them more fun.  In a lot of cases this is done to beef up an ai that is woefully inept, to keep a level of challenge there, but yes, the game should be fun.
I guess the bottom line here is I've never once thrown my phone over a random cascade.  This seems like a waste of effort to me when there are clear and possibly easy fixes that could be implemented to make far more people happy, from the players to the devs, to customer support.

I'm saying it's not a "conspiracy theorist claim." It doesn't matter if they claim it's rigged, or if they think it's fair, and it doesn't matter if it IS rigged or fair. It's subjective, and the point is to tweak the objective parts (whether or not it's rigged) to get the desired subjective experience (the game being fun enough to keep playing). I agree I've never been mad enough to throw the phone, but I have referred to "**** Cascades" as if it were an actual villain living within the game, off and on for the entire three years I've played this game (that was actually my first reaction to my alliance, pointing out that **** Cascades was actually being targeted with this update). 

My point being, it's not just about the crazy conspiracy people that will find something new to complain about, but the people who simply don't know what goes on under the hood. The ones that might see something, and instead of saying "this is rigged against me", would assume the system is working as intended, and instead just label it as "not fun."

I'm sure there are plenty of other changes that would be more meaningful to veterans (and even intermediate players), but the goal of this one is to keep beginners attached to create more intermediate/veteran players in the first place, so I'm all for it, you know?

furbear00000

Demiurge_Will said:

furbear00000 said:

I hope this isn’t their solution to the Wakanda event, because I have a feeling it is, and it’s not the solution.

No, I recognize that this change isn't going to address feedback on Fight for Wakanda. (We've taken that event out of rotation and hope to make some tweaks before we re-introduce it.)

Thank you. That’s a major relief to hear. 

purplemur

Cool QoL change!(more new players=long term health) great post!(explained everything) great follow up!(demiwill!)
snarkalert...... can the team go to E3 more often?

The same fixing calculations please for unusable covers? %5/45/100 is fair.
cuz I just got #9 ValkYellow & If I have to burn another See the Math of It cover I might charge up the old iphone just to throw it off the balcony. 

I still don't understand being against a cap on enemy cascades? wouldn't this actually net a decrease in grind time?

#newblivesmatter

jamesh

Demiurge_Will said:

furbear00000 said:

I hope this isn’t their solution to the Wakanda event, because I have a feeling it is, and it’s not the solution.

No, I recognize that this change isn't going to address feedback on Fight for Wakanda. (We've taken that event out of rotation and hope to make some tweaks before we re-introduce it.)

Any chance of adding some extra dialog to the event while you tweak the mechanics?  Only having dialog before the first match and after the last match in each sub-event felt a bit underwhelming.

grenadier

This seems like a problem that didn't really need fixing, as opposed to the problems that actually DO exist that are being ignored.  Please spend time on real problems, not on busy work to cater to the conspiracy theorists.

OzarkBoatswain

Completely unnecessary and a waste of development time.

T_REZ5000

Nice change.  Will make green Ultron bots less annoying.  Also good news they are looking into doing something about Wakanda.  That event was wak (sorry, couldn’t help myself).

AXP_isme

T_REZ5000 said:

Nice change.  Will make green Ultron bots less annoying.  Also good news they are looking into doing something about Wakanda.  That event was wak (sorry, couldn’t help myself).

Sometimes you just gotta pun!

Now where did that downvote button go... 😉

broll

sirwookieechris said:

crackninja said:

So we are now catering to the tinfoil hats who feel like they have been wronged by a fair system, by implementing an unfair system.  At least it's not a conspiracy, it's totally out in the open...
As noted, this inadvertantly acts as a subtle nerf to several characters, all for the benefit of what exactly?  There will still be mistrust, conspiracies, etc., and seeing code like this is part of the game honestly makes me less trusting of it overall.  Maybe there really is an "if im40 = true, set yellow_tile_nerf = true" statement in there somewhere.
The one positive is that if new players were actually quitting because of this, then they may stay a little longer.. until they decide that it's unfair that they pulled 4 straight red 2* wolverine covers from heroic tokens, and of course that's the only color of any 2* character they couldn't use.

So we shouldn’t cater to people who feel the game is unfair? And then you go on to mention that the game must be purposefully giving you useless covers?

If their feelings aren't valid, no we shouldn't.  The point is that people have an unrealistic and non-factual perception, yet they are being catered too.  Where's the line there?  I feel the game should give me $20,000 for playing it, why isn't it catering to me?  

JHawkInc

broll said:

sirwookieechris said:

crackninja said:

So we are now catering to the tinfoil hats who feel like they have been wronged by a fair system, by implementing an unfair system.  At least it's not a conspiracy, it's totally out in the open...
As noted, this inadvertantly acts as a subtle nerf to several characters, all for the benefit of what exactly?  There will still be mistrust, conspiracies, etc., and seeing code like this is part of the game honestly makes me less trusting of it overall.  Maybe there really is an "if im40 = true, set yellow_tile_nerf = true" statement in there somewhere.
The one positive is that if new players were actually quitting because of this, then they may stay a little longer.. until they decide that it's unfair that they pulled 4 straight red 2* wolverine covers from heroic tokens, and of course that's the only color of any 2* character they couldn't use.

So we shouldn’t cater to people who feel the game is unfair? And then you go on to mention that the game must be purposefully giving you useless covers?

If their feelings aren't valid, no we shouldn't.  The point is that people have an unrealistic and non-factual perception, yet they are being catered too.  Where's the line there?  I feel the game should give me $20,000 for playing it, why isn't it catering to me?  

The game isn't catering to you because you're rooting your argument in hyperbole. I mean, you're not even trying to have a rational discussion here.

Nevermind that the root of this is that the game doesn't feel fun, which is wholly subjective and not something you can call not valid in the first place.