Iso loss during boss events or 48 hour subs *Updated with Placement iso loss

bluewolf

We are in the middle of the stereotypical iso-drought in MPQ, a boss event followed by DPvMPQ a 48 hour sub.  It got me thinking, because of course, every time we have a 48 hour sub or a boss or some event that leads to less PVE grinding opportunities, people complain.  UPDATE:  Since we appear to be in the new era of boss event 4* releases, and people thought placement is worth including, I updated the figures.

So I took a look at 4 months/120 days (2/1 to 5/31/18) of PVE to assess what events are run and try to see if there how much shortfall we really ended up with, if any.  (FYI:  This is the first time in that 4 month timeframe that we had a boss followed by DPvMPQ.)

I'm ignoring Bonus Rewards (Intercepts) here, since not everyone takes part, and you do get PVE nodes to play during the event.   I'm also ignoring placement rewards, because well, you can't say everyone will get placement.  EDIT:  I am including placement now at the SCL7 level. I'm also going to look at SCL9 since that's what I'm playing for DPvMPQ.  Lastly, tokens are vastly different in terms of offering some rosters iso gains and others a need to spend iso, so I am ignoring those too.

First, consider 48 hour subs.  We had 7 of them up until the Spidey boss event.  I'm actually considering them a bit of a wash because we get a good number  (10 times in this timeframe) of newer events that have extra iso nodes - Simulator, Webbed Wonder, Fight for Wakanda, Strange Sights - which I think  bring you back to the baseline of hitting 10 nodes 6 times a day for rewards.

Speaking of the (assumed) baseline people think about: 1 day of standard PVE play - doing 6 clears, all normal nodes - comes out to 8,480 if you hit every node (including the 5e) 6 times.  

A boss event offers 5 side nodes every 8 hours for 500 iso, a total of 7,500 a day if you hit them all. You are playing all the scaled up side nodes because you really want that iso, right?  So you're down about 980 from node iso per day.  You miss out on 3 days of standard PVE grind over a boss event.  That's a total of 2,940 shortfall.  

The boss node itself in a normal (not Sinister 6) event offers the chance at 1500 iso per round, but it is impossible for all players to farm all the rewards each round because you'll advance rounds before that happens.  Let's say you got half of the available total (1500x8 is 12,000, so 6,000).  We are now 3,060 ahead in iso.

The progression is not so kind.  The Xmen v Apocalypse event offered 2,520 in the individual progression.  Current DPvMPQ offers 8,800 iso in progression (SCL9). (3 and 4 day events have identical progression tables).  Shortfall is 6,280.

EDIT:  Now to consider placement.  For placement:  I am going to consider a T250 player in SCL 7.  Obviously a lot of players do better than that, but it's fair to assume that if you are reading this, that's a reasonable goal for you.  Per sub, T250 gets you 2250 (ind + ally), for 6750 in sub rewards.  Event is 3250 total, for a total of 10,000 iso over a 3 day event.  Add that to the other shortfall and it's 16,280.

Total shortfall (16,280-3,060) is 13,220 per boss event with these figures and assumptions.  However, there is less playtime and more covers earned.

We had 6 boss events between 2/1/18 and 5/31/18 including Sinister 6.  That's 79,320 less than "normal" iso income over 4 months.  

Could they increase boss event iso to be more in line with normal PVE?  Yes, of course.  It comes out to about 20,000 iso a month, which is somewhat significant, but as a high end player, I usually gain more than that in one day.

One mitigating factor is Shield Training.  If you can manage to get through at least the essential nodes, you can get 11,750 iso from that event.  Shield training ran a total of 6 times over this time frame.  But I'm not going to include it because plenty of high end players don't have all the ST characters at 209.

I hope this helps inform the conversation moving forward.

Punter1

bluewolf said:

I'm also ignoring placement rewards, because well, you can't say everyone will get placement. 

After that - all your analysis is moot.  Most forumites would agree, prog and node clears iso is close to a wash for boss as you note.  However missing t50++ ISO for alliance and personal placement is a massive iso hole that isn't replaced.

AXP_isme

Don’t you just hate it when people provide this kind of data driven PSA that cause you to reevaluate your position 😝.

I predict that normal service will resume in 5... 4... 3...
now where did I put that pitchfork?

LavaManLee

bluewolf said:

I'm ignoring Bonus Rewards (Intercepts) here, since not everyone takes part.  I'm also ignoring placement rewards, because well, you can't say everyone will get placement.  I'm also going to look at SCL9 since that's what I'm playing for DPvMPQ.  Lastly, tokens are vastly different in terms of offering some rosters iso gains and others a need to spend iso, so I am ignoring those too.

Speaking of the (assumed) baseline people think about: 1 day of standard PVE play - doing 6 clears, all normal nodes - comes out to 8,480 if you hit every node (including the 5e) 6 times.

See, here's the problem.  Your assumptions take away everything I do to maximize my ISO that I can't get during a boss event.  I understand what you are saying but the assumptions do not work for me and I lose a LOT more ISO during the boss events and 48 hour subs than can possibly be made up without paying for them.

* I do 7 clears optimally
* I do Bonus Awards
* I play for placement (T50 at least, if not better)

Maybe everyone else is awash in ISO and I am just not lucky.  But I definitely notice the drought that comes with Boss Events and 48 hour subs.

Again, YMMV.

Blindman13

Gotta agree with @Punter1 and @LavaManLee. Once you add in the event placement and daily sub placement (even if you are getting bottom placement), the ISO difference mounts up.

I would also challenge with the claim that you get more tokens/covers with a boss event. There may be more 4*s in the alliance progression, but you are missing out on CP in progression and all the standard and elite tokens from clearing daily nodes. These may just be more fertilizer for the farm, that that converts to ISO in the long run.

Dormammu

Don't 48 Hour subs offer 2x the normal ISO from nodes?

Punisher5784

bluewolf said:

I'm ignoring Bonus Rewards (Intercepts) here, since not everyone takes part.  I'm also ignoring placement rewards, because well, you can't say everyone will get placement.  I'm also going to look at SCL9 since that's what I'm playing for DPvMPQ.  Lastly, tokens are vastly different in terms of offering some rosters iso gains and others a need to spend iso, so I am ignoring those too.

I am confused by this.. every player who plays PVE will get placement. Even if you just play the Loaner once and never touch the rest of the event, you still place 801-1000 which is 2250 Iso and 2 Standard tokens for SCL9. Most of the players that complain are likely T50-100, which is 4500-5000 Iso plus covers. Don't forget the sub-event rewards too. Overall, the iso loss is much higher. I'm okay with trading Iso for 4* covers but I agree the Iso can be increased, at least up-to a minimum of 500 for all node/progression rewards.

As for SHIELD Intercepts, I understand why you excluded them but I do find it annoying that I receive drastically less intercept rewards for Bosses. You only receive Intercepts by making PURCHASES. This means my purchases are less valuable when there is a boss event. I understand the Intercepts are bonus, but they are part of the reason I make purchases.

Blindman13

Dormammu said:

Don't 48 Hour subs offer 2x the normal ISO from nodes?

Nope. The nodes give same ISO, and the sub placement is the same as in a 24 hour sub.

JHawkInc

And for 2-day subs, you're missing out on a days' worth of tokens, and the loss of a 5-star node (the 4-star node and final hard node both have modified rewards for the 2-day subs to give extra CP, but the 5-star node doesn't have that for the tokens and CP).

That stuff adds up. I'm personally okay with Boss events giving a little less because you get more covers (though I still think it feels like it could use a slight boost, even if it's just an increase on boss hit rewards to give people something extra for continuing to play after completing the event). But all of these little sources of extra income add up, and 2-day subs leave you wanting more.

KC_Hammer

Missing out on 5k iso a day from placement a couple times when i normally get around 35k is such a trivial amount that I could not care less.

LavaManLee

KC_Hammer said:

Missing out on 5k iso a day from placement a couple times when i normally get around 35k is such a trivial amount that I could not care less.

It's cool that you think it is trivial but it is definitely not for me and obviously some others.

Blindman13

LavaManLee said:

KC_Hammer said:

Missing out on 5k iso a day from placement a couple times when i normally get around 35k is such a trivial amount that I could not care less.

It's cool that you think it is trivial but it is definitely not for me and obviously some others.

Agreed.  Since when is 15% trivial?  

KC_Hammer

Blindman13 said:

LavaManLee said:

KC_Hammer said:

Missing out on 5k iso a day from placement a couple times when i normally get around 35k is such a trivial amount that I could not care less.

It's cool that you think it is trivial but it is definitely not for me and obviously some others.

Agreed.  Since when is 15% trivial?  

Every time there is a boss event it is. Which is fairly rare in the grand scheme. Not getting 5k iso for a couple days, once or maybe twice a month. So over the course of a few months you lose out on 1 days worth of ISO. Which means over the course of a year, how much is that? About as much as it costs to champ a 3* over the course of a year... seems pretty trivial to me. Maybe just chill out about a video game that is obviously good enough for you to play every day. Or at least try to stop dwelling on all the negatives and just enjoy it, it might make your life more pleasant.

JHawkInc

KC_Hammer said:

Blindman13 said:

LavaManLee said:

KC_Hammer said:

Missing out on 5k iso a day from placement a couple times when i normally get around 35k is such a trivial amount that I could not care less.

It's cool that you think it is trivial but it is definitely not for me and obviously some others.

Agreed.  Since when is 15% trivial?  

Every time there is a boss event it is. Which is fairly rare in the grand scheme. Not getting 5k iso for a couple days, once or maybe twice a month. So over the course of a few months you lose out on 1 days worth of ISO. Which means over the course of a year, how much is that? About as much as it costs to champ a 3* over the course of a year... seems pretty trivial to me. Maybe just chill out about a video game that is obviously good enough for you to play every day. Or at least try to stop dwelling on all the negatives and just enjoy it, it might make your life more pleasant.

Over a year, sure. 

When you're on a 14-day timer to save a cover, it matters. As long as covers are expiring after two weeks, it doesn't matter if it's trivial after a year, because it can still ruin your plans in the short term.

KC_Hammer

JHawkInc said:

KC_Hammer said:

Blindman13 said:

LavaManLee said:

KC_Hammer said:

Missing out on 5k iso a day from placement a couple times when i normally get around 35k is such a trivial amount that I could not care less.

It's cool that you think it is trivial but it is definitely not for me and obviously some others.

Agreed.  Since when is 15% trivial?  

Every time there is a boss event it is. Which is fairly rare in the grand scheme. Not getting 5k iso for a couple days, once or maybe twice a month. So over the course of a few months you lose out on 1 days worth of ISO. Which means over the course of a year, how much is that? About as much as it costs to champ a 3* over the course of a year... seems pretty trivial to me. Maybe just chill out about a video game that is obviously good enough for you to play every day. Or at least try to stop dwelling on all the negatives and just enjoy it, it might make your life more pleasant.

Over a year, sure. 

When you're on a 14-day timer to save a cover, it matters. As long as covers are expiring after two weeks, it doesn't matter if it's trivial after a year, because it can still ruin your plans in the short term.

Really? In a 2 week period trying to save a cover its come down to 15k ISO and there was nothing you could do about it? I find that hard to believe. 

Edit: Now I'm not saying that more ISO wouldn't be great because of course it would be. I'm feeling the ISO debt as much as anyone in the 4* realm. Just overall it seems like the amount of people complaining about what seems to be a very minor affect in the long run seems like a bit much. And afterall, ISO debt is all about the long run anyway. 

Pr0spect0r

yea it doest come down to 15k, because of the boss event i had to sell off a 2* champ that i did not have spare covers for once i sold which led me to miss the DDQ fight for the 2cp. it all snowballs.

veny

Well, i can pretty much agree with 2 day events - for less time needed, you get same progression loot and placement loot you would usually get. The only loss are the nodes, but you can spend time elsewhere.

Same cannot be said about Boss events - the loot (especially HPs, ISO and CPs) from these events is nothing compared to what you get from regular PvE progression loot, and placement loot from sub-campaings and then final placement loot (everyone gets placement rewards based on their efforts - doing max progression loot should push you in at least top 200 where rewards are pretty good).

Boss events also take some time, and require activity every 8 hours instead of 24.

MAYBE some people may feel boss event good, since there are up to four 4* available and up to 2 Legendary tokens, but in terms of ISO and CPs, it is a disaster. Plus, not every aliance gets in higher rounds.

bluewolf

I will admit that boss Events have a bigger impact if you are not in an Alliance that can't complete all the rounds, or at minimum get to round 8.  If you are a player that isn't hitting that goal, and would like to, I very much advise moving to a new Alliance.

The new 4* rates will actually reduce iso pressure, since your covers will be very spread out and you won't feel pressured to champ the Latest toons as quickly.  You can slowly add iso to various toons as covers come in.  So there's an upside...?

Qubort

Punter1 said:

bluewolf said:

I'm also ignoring placement rewards, because well, you can't say everyone will get placement. 

After that - all your analysis is moot.  Most forumites would agree, prog and node clears iso is close to a wash for boss as you note.  However missing t50++ ISO for alliance and personal placement is a massive iso hole that isn't replaced.

Plus anyone that is doing full clears is getting decent placement. Ignoring that is purposeful to skew results.

LavaManLee

KC_Hammer said:

Blindman13 said:

LavaManLee said:

KC_Hammer said:

Missing out on 5k iso a day from placement a couple times when i normally get around 35k is such a trivial amount that I could not care less.

It's cool that you think it is trivial but it is definitely not for me and obviously some others.

Agreed.  Since when is 15% trivial?  

Every time there is a boss event it is. Which is fairly rare in the grand scheme. Not getting 5k iso for a couple days, once or maybe twice a month. So over the course of a few months you lose out on 1 days worth of ISO. Which means over the course of a year, how much is that? About as much as it costs to champ a 3* over the course of a year... seems pretty trivial to me. Maybe just chill out about a video game that is obviously good enough for you to play every day. Or at least try to stop dwelling on all the negatives and just enjoy it, it might make your life more pleasant.

Why does this mean so much to you that you continue to defend it?  For some of us, it matters.  And it is because of the setup.  If covers didn't expire, it might not matter.  But they do.  So it does.

KC_Hammer

LavaManLee said:

KC_Hammer said:

Blindman13 said:

LavaManLee said:

KC_Hammer said:

Missing out on 5k iso a day from placement a couple times when i normally get around 35k is such a trivial amount that I could not care less.

It's cool that you think it is trivial but it is definitely not for me and obviously some others.

Agreed.  Since when is 15% trivial?  

Every time there is a boss event it is. Which is fairly rare in the grand scheme. Not getting 5k iso for a couple days, once or maybe twice a month. So over the course of a few months you lose out on 1 days worth of ISO. Which means over the course of a year, how much is that? About as much as it costs to champ a 3* over the course of a year... seems pretty trivial to me. Maybe just chill out about a video game that is obviously good enough for you to play every day. Or at least try to stop dwelling on all the negatives and just enjoy it, it might make your life more pleasant.

Why does this mean so much to you that you continue to defend it?  For some of us, it matters.  And it is because of the setup.  If covers didn't expire, it might not matter.  But they do.  So it does.

I just thought that trying to show people the broader picture might make people less upset about something that in my mind is pretty trivial. But apparently it isn't to you so... sorry i guess?