Idea for avoiding burnout.

Colognoisseur

Clint I hear you but you all realize that the burnout you are feeling is self-inflicted.
SHIELD as a group decided to form and go for the number one spot and you have succeeded at that, congratulations! I admire the dedication it takes to do that.
The question now is whether you all still feel it is as important to maintain that position.
If it is then you need to keep doing as you have been without any help from a rules change to make it easier for you.
Every competition requires a bit of suffering to be elite and if you all decide to continue to be elite there should be no break for that.
If you have proved your point that you can be the very best but now want to take it easy you all can decide to do that too. It won't make me think any the less of your accomplishments to date.
The solution to your burnout issue is entirely in you and the rest of your alliance's hands no need for the devs to step in.

Unknown

It's not a bad idea, but not sure how much it will help. If the devs were to take your idea they would more likely attach the 'season 2' designation to events they would think were less likely to be popular in an attempt to boost their participation.

So, you'll still be competing hard in events where you need the covers along with the Season 2 events where the prizes/heros are not very attractive.

In the end, it's as Colognoisseur says, burnout is a completely self-inflicted affair. I see plenty of top alliances where not every member is scoring 1400+ in PvP's. It's quite easy to take an event 'off', log in the last 60-90 minutes (of a 2.5 day event) and grind up 700-900+ points. Which is a fine contribution and not a lot of involvement on the part of a regular MPQ player.

Clintman

Colognoisseur wrote:

Clint I hear you but you all realize that the burnout you are feeling is self-inflicted.
SHIELD as a group decided to form and go for the number one spot and you have succeeded at that, congratulations! I admire the dedication it takes to do that.
The question now is whether you all still feel it is as important to maintain that position.
If it is then you need to keep doing as you have been without any help from a rules change to make it easier for you.
Every competition requires a bit of suffering to be elite and if you all decide to continue to be elite there should be no break for that.
If you have proved your point that you can be the very best but now want to take it easy you all can decide to do that too. It won't make me think any the less of your accomplishments to date.
The solution to your burnout issue is entirely in you and the rest of your alliance's hands no need for the devs to step in.

I can't help but feel that the central theme of what I am getting at is that the imapact is not just on me, or S.H.I.E.L.D or the other high end alliances, it has secondary ripple effects. I am hardcore, I am always hardcore in every game I play. I raided at the top levels in World of Warcraft, Everquest, and a lot of others and there has to be a balance, this is too much of a zero sum game right now with the current implementation.

I don't like having to steal the other kids lunch money in order to win. It feels like gluttony, we are taking covers we don't need. The secondary effects I feel are that my brother in law who plays casually (has 141 Punisher and 115 Hulk) feels like the game all of a sudden took event rewards out of his reach without spending HP in order to secure them. I know this sounds a bit melodramatic, but I have to explain to him that D3 did not change the reward structure, they just incentivized the veterans to take covers they don't need in order to compete in the seasons event.

I am no stranger to grinding and enjoy it from time to time, but a month long grind is over the top.

Colognoisseur

Clintman wrote:

I can't help but feel that the central theme of what I am getting at is that the imapact is not just on me, or S.H.I.E.L.D or the other high end alliances, it has secondary ripple effects. I am hardcore, I am always hardcore in every game I play. I raided at the top levels in World of Warcraft, Everquest, and a lot of others and there has to be a balance, this is too much of a zero sum game right now with the current implementation.

I don't like having to steal the other kids lunch money in order to win. It feels like gluttony, we are taking covers we don't need. The secondary effects I feel are that my brother in law who plays casually (has 141 Punisher and 115 Hulk) feels like the game all of a sudden took event rewards out of his reach without spending HP in order to secure them. I know this sounds a bit melodramatic, but I have to explain to him that D3 did not change the reward structure, they just incentivized the veterans to take covers they don't need in order to compete in the seasons event.

I am no stranger to grinding and enjoy it from time to time, but a month long grind is over the top.

Clint you keep wanting to have it both ways.
Either embrace being hardcore and understand that you are stealing the other kids' lunch money or stop.
You are the only person deciding it is necessary to be so hardcore that you need to post the scores you are posting.
You're like the guy who steals the other kids lunch money and then when you hear their stomach rumbling in class later look over and smile and say if only the school would do something about my stealing your lunch money you wouldn't be hungry.

Be hardcore, be elite, be competitive and accept that you are the guy stealing the covers or don't. The devs should not be in the business of making you feel less guilty about it.
Everything you describe as being a problem you have the ability to change for what you say is the better.
Embrace being hardcore and endure the grind or get off the treadmill it is all up to you......not the devs.

Clintman

Colognoisseur wrote:

Clintman wrote:

I can't help but feel that the central theme of what I am getting at is that the imapact is not just on me, or S.H.I.E.L.D or the other high end alliances, it has secondary ripple effects. I am hardcore, I am always hardcore in every game I play. I raided at the top levels in World of Warcraft, Everquest, and a lot of others and there has to be a balance, this is too much of a zero sum game right now with the current implementation.

I don't like having to steal the other kids lunch money in order to win. It feels like gluttony, we are taking covers we don't need. The secondary effects I feel are that my brother in law who plays casually (has 141 Punisher and 115 Hulk) feels like the game all of a sudden took event rewards out of his reach without spending HP in order to secure them. I know this sounds a bit melodramatic, but I have to explain to him that D3 did not change the reward structure, they just incentivized the veterans to take covers they don't need in order to compete in the seasons event.

I am no stranger to grinding and enjoy it from time to time, but a month long grind is over the top.

Clint you keep wanting to have it both ways.
Either embrace being hardcore and understand that you are stealing the other kids' lunch money or stop.
You are the only person deciding it is necessary to be so hardcore that you need to post the scores you are posting.
You're like the guy who steals the other kids lunch money and then when you hear their stomach rumbling in class later look over and smile and say if only the school would do something about my stealing your lunch money you wouldn't be hungry.

Be hardcore, be elite, be competitive and accept that you are the guy stealing the covers or don't. The devs should not be in the business of making you feel less guilty about it.
Everything you describe as being a problem you have the ability to change for what you say is the better.
Embrace being hardcore and endure the grind or get off the treadmill it is all up to you......not the devs.

No drop of rain believes it is responsible for the flood.

mags1587

There is an issue with burnout and it's not just related to the top alliances. The problem is there's not really a lot of middle ground. If you want to be competitive you have to be active every event between new covers that will be needed for the next event, season scores, etc. And there's no break between events. It's one after another after another and if you take an event off, there's a real risk that you'll miss out on that new required cover and fall farther and farther behind. If D3 doesn't do something like this at the very least a cool-down period between events would help -- a week off from PvE every 4-5 weeks, say, or a couple of weeks between Season 1 and Season 2 for PvP.

Copps

I definitely understand where you are coming from Clint. It seems like the competition level has ratcheted through the roof. I was the benefactor of one of your members letting me grab a blue iw cover at 1200 points because I needed it before the season rewards existed. And I have taken tourneys much lower key before when I didn't really need the covers. I'm personally not trying to win my pvp season coffeeandbacon will do that handily but I should still hit top 5 if I hit the sim a little harder. It has led to me taking all kinds of Loki doom and rag covers that I have had maxed for months though. Those covers could help someone make a viable lr team whereas I would rather swap in Thor over rags even in LRs now with both maxed.

Unknown

Colognoisseur wrote:

Clint you keep wanting to have it both ways.
Either embrace being hardcore and understand that you are stealing the other kids' lunch money or stop.

But it doesn't have to be that way in a video game. In WoW there were instances. The top guild on the server could clear the top dungeon exclusively to get to the end boss all they want and it wouldn't affect a smaller guild from going in and working hard to defeat the first boss.

It's just a shame that they decided to organize this game in such a way that when the top guys go after that end prize they cause difficulties for the lower level people.

Unknown

Hausdorff wrote:

But it doesn't have to be that way in a video game. In WoW there were instances.

Every 500 users that joins an event in MPQ creates a new 'instance'. With 100k people joining in most events, I'm not convinced there are enough hardcore players to 'crowd out' people from getting adequete prizes. I still see new people every day that are successfully making the 2 star -> 3 star transition.

Also, it's important to note that the reward structure in most events has flattened out considerably. There isn't a whole lot of difference from finishing 3rd or 49th in most events. Save for a cover/token, a few HP and ISO.

When you actually think about the value of a single cover (and it's effect on your overall success in this game), it is not as significant as we make it out to be sometimes.

Unknown

Clintman wrote:

Make Falcon events crazy competitive and have them count toward season standings. Make a Daken event count toward season standings, that is cool, lets go nuts over new covers.

I'm not going to chug through the whole thread, but I am going to pipe in to say this (and it's not entirely fair of me to pick out one part of a statement and attack it, but I'm just doing this to make sure the blatant drawback is brought to light):

This is an awful idea if I ever saw one. If they were to only make new character tournaments count towards season score, it would just encourage everyone to drop their wallet and pump up the new hero, who will be far from max covered without dropping fat stacks. It will literally become pay to win, and that is quite honestly an unacceptable situation with regards to how the season operates. The current situation is better than that - but it's far from acceptable, I'm sure they're looking at some metrics and seeing burnout, I know I'm in that boat of "Geez, Ragnarok tournament rewarding Loki covers? Skip.", as my alliance is still in the top 25 despite several people just flaking on different events.

Unknown

reckless442 wrote:

Right now, most of my alliance members are discussing how we can take it easier in season 2 because we are burnt out. We have people who have considered leaving the alliance or even the game entirely because of the stress of trying to compete, not because they are being pressured by other alliance members, but simply because they don't want to seem like freeloaders. That's no good for the game or the alliance system.

What Clint is proposing is a happy medium between encouraging competition and letting players get breathers between events. It also may provide greater opportunities for mid-level players to get key covers that, as many of us recognize, the veterans with fully covered line-ups are hoarding because they need the season points.

We have the same problem in 5DV, many of us are considering a break after season 1, including me. I'll only do the events that catch my interest, and I really hope they wait for at least 1 month to start season 2, with new structures! No more non-stop pvp!

Linkster79

Cant help but agree that if players are feeling like it is too much then it is up to them to take a break.

In everything if you want to be the best then you also have to put in the most time and show the most dedication. I whinge and moan as much as everyone else, if not more but my main gripes are only fixable by the development team. The time I am willing to put into the game is controlled by me, and since joining a more relaxed alliance I have to say I am enjoying my game more. Try being casual for an event and see how it works out for you. I doubt that a slightly lower score in one PvP event will have a massive impact to the top 10 alliances season standing.

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

Hausdorff wrote:

But it doesn't have to be that way in a video game. In WoW there were instances.

Every 500 users that joins an event in MPQ creates a new 'instance'. With 100k people joining in most events, I'm not convinced there are enough hardcore players to 'crowd out' people from getting adequete prizes. I still see new people every day that are successfully making the 2 star -> 3 star transition.

Also, it's important to note that the reward structure in most events has flattened out considerably. There isn't a whole lot of difference from finishing 3rd or 49th in most events. Save for a cover/token, a few HP and ISO.

When you actually think about the value of a single cover (and it's effect on your overall success in this game), it is not as significant as we make it out to be sometimes.

True enough. The last few tournaments have been crazy, but perhaps I have just been unlucky in getting into brackets.

Unknown

Well, tone aside, Phantron is right. What this suggestion boils down to is that some people want to maintain their competitive ranking without having to put in the same amount of effort. If top alliances want to take it easy in season 2, they're perfectly free to do so, and if that drops them to #23 in the standings, well, that seems reasonable enough.

And if the members of those alliances can't deal with being that far down in the standings, then it really seems like the problem is with them, not the game.

Unknown

To bring up a few points, and reiterate on a big 1.

#1 / large alliances - I wanna talk a little bit about the hate on these multi-alliances, since I was basically responsible for that starting. When I was growing 5dv from the 20-40 it was to the 100 it became, there were no thoughts of player swapping for rank increase. There were 2 goals in my mind.

#1.1 - eventually I assumed alliances would expand to 25 or 30. Having multiple alliances would allow us to go immediately to max players in multiple alliances upon expansion. We would be able to have 30 quality members who's performance we were already aware of day 1 if an expansion was to happen.

#1.2 - I have played TONS of mobile games all to an extreme level. I'm very aware of burnout and irl problems. People need a break sometimes. Having multiple alliances at different lvls of competitiveness allowed players in need to step down to a less competitive branch if they need to take a tourney or 2 off but all alliances could still receive the coveted 3rd cover. It removes a portion of the low performance guilt so to speak.

#2 - member swapping for score - after we had alliance set up shield was constantly taking in 500hp tourney after tourney. They were clearly the dominate alliance and increasingly separating themselves from the pack. The way I looked at it, professional sports teams have a bench. Football teams don't consist if only 11 people that never leave the field. Basketball teams don't keep the same 5 people on the court through every quarter of every game. We had built a large bench and it seemed like its use was about to become necessity. Thus the beginning of player swaps. Never actually got implemented while I was still in 5dv but there's why and how it happened.

#3 - reiterating my point for the main topic of the thread, it's not just burnout for all of us. I could keep this lvl of play up for months on end and it's not a big deal. You can get to 1200 points and shield in 1 mid-length grinding session if your roster is solid. The issue for me as I stated before was that they took away incentive for top scorers while adding a deceptive incentive. We aren't getting any nice new covers. LT / HT / BP. Basically all the new covers besides lazy cap has been rarer than any previous cover. It's putting us in a competitive situation where it looks like we are gonna win an awesome season prize. Nick fury. But in reality we are only getting 1 of his covers after 20some days of taking in **** rewards. When IW was released the tourney was like 10 days and you could win all 3. It's almost like they did the closest thing possible to a bait and switch without actually doing it.

It's kind of a hard concept to explain so I don't know if I'm coming across clearly, but the season rewards are very lackluster and on top of that they changed individual placement rewards to be very lackluster. They've put us at each other's throats this season to obtain victory, then swiped all the actual benefits away. I know it's my own decision to compete. I just wanna be able to compete and be properly rewarded for my victory. Not spend hours grinding out to 1400-1500 for covers I maxed 4-6 months ago.

NorthernPolarity

ZenBrillig wrote:

Well, tone aside, Phantron is right. What this suggestion boils down to is that some people want to maintain their competitive ranking without having to put in the same amount of effort. If top alliances want to take it easy in season 2, they're perfectly free to do so, and if that drops them to #23 in the standings, well, that seems reasonable enough.

And if the members of those alliances can't deal with being that far down in the standings, then it really seems like the problem is with them, not the game.

I don't think this is a fair assessment of the suggestion. Suppose that rubberbanding was completely taken away from PvE. You could make the exact same argument of people want to maintain their competitive ranking without having to put in the same amount of effort, and I doubt that the majority of the playerbase would agree with you because there is obviously a limit to how much time even the most hardcore people are willing to put into the game, and repeatedly grinding down PvE events every refresh obviously wouldn't work with most players. I don't think that seasons is quite at this level yet, but I think being able to take an event off every now and then would be a nice change of pace and make the tournaments that actually matter more meaningful, while giving more covers to lower tier players as well.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

ZenBrillig wrote:

Well, tone aside, Phantron is right. What this suggestion boils down to is that some people want to maintain their competitive ranking without having to put in the same amount of effort. If top alliances want to take it easy in season 2, they're perfectly free to do so, and if that drops them to #23 in the standings, well, that seems reasonable enough.

And if the members of those alliances can't deal with being that far down in the standings, then it really seems like the problem is with them, not the game.

I don't think this is a fair assessment of the suggestion. Suppose that rubberbanding was completely taken away from PvE. You could make the exact same argument of people want to maintain their competitive ranking without having to put in the same amount of effort, and I doubt that the majority of the playerbase would agree with you because there is obviously a limit to how much time even the most hardcore people are willing to put into the game, and repeatedly grinding down PvE events every refresh obviously wouldn't work with most players. I don't think that seasons is quite at this level yet, but I think being able to take an event off every now and then would be a nice change of pace and make the tournaments that actually matter more meaningful, while giving more covers to lower tier players as well.

Exactly. What it really boils down to is that some people want to play MPQ for fun, instead of as a primary or secondary job. Match-3 is an inherently casual format, so they alienate a significant portion of their player base if they only want to cater to professional gamers.

Unknown

Before I taget this one piece of text, I want to commend you on a very well-written piece that I agree with .. but ..

Psykopathic wrote:

It's kind of a hard concept to explain so I don't know if I'm coming across clearly, but the season rewards are very lackluster and on top of that they changed individual placement rewards to be very lackluster. They've put us at each other's throats this season to obtain victory, then swiped all the actual benefits away. I know it's my own decision to compete. I just wanna be able to compete and be properly rewarded for my victory. Not spend hours grinding out to 1400-1500 for covers I maxed 4-6 months ago.

The reason the season awards are so lackluster was to help prevent burnout. You DON'T have to compete so hard to get roughly the same prizes. Just look through all the rosters of alliances from teams 4-20. You will see many users scoring sub-400 scores in bad PvP events and some not even competing at all. They are still going to get (roughly) the same prizes as you are.

It's only at the VERY top where the pressure to score 1000+ in every event is evident. That's strictly due to peer pressure and competitive nature, not anything the devs of MPQ have done through incentives or event structure.

Unknown

I think the people who are interpreting this as "1st World Alliance Problems" are being kind of silly. This isn't primarily a S.H.I.E.L.D problem. It's a problem for players at all levels. I'm in an alliance with mostly people I actually know (and some people I had to recruit through the fora), and my alliance mates are mostly in the 2* and transition phase of the game. Since season 1 started their progression has been mostly halted, and this is after playing hard and shielding their way to higher scores than they were reaching 3 weeks ago.

Working twice as hard for a smaller reward: that's a recipe for burnout, plain and simple. Every conversation isn't a conversation about the race for 1st place.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

ZenBrillig wrote:

Well, tone aside, Phantron is right. What this suggestion boils down to is that some people want to maintain their competitive ranking without having to put in the same amount of effort. If top alliances want to take it easy in season 2, they're perfectly free to do so, and if that drops them to #23 in the standings, well, that seems reasonable enough.

And if the members of those alliances can't deal with being that far down in the standings, then it really seems like the problem is with them, not the game.

I don't think this is a fair assessment of the suggestion. Suppose that rubberbanding was completely taken away from PvE. You could make the exact same argument of people want to maintain their competitive ranking without having to put in the same amount of effort, and I doubt that the majority of the playerbase would agree with you because there is obviously a limit to how much time even the most hardcore people are willing to put into the game, and repeatedly grinding down PvE events every refresh obviously wouldn't work with most players. I don't think that seasons is quite at this level yet, but I think being able to take an event off every now and then would be a nice change of pace and make the tournaments that actually matter more meaningful, while giving more covers to lower tier players as well.

Competition was far less intense in the first iteration of heroic Oscorp with no rubberbanding. I recall most people finish with rather humble scores in that event because there was no way you can compete against someone who was actually hardcore. People say stuff like 'oh it's just Daredevil so won't bother', and yet Daredevil is at least a hero you won't have max covered at that point. What would someone who can compete for #1 in seasons ladder get from 40 heroic tokens?

And at the end there's no difference between walking about from the first heroic Oscorp (which is indeed very hardcore) because Daredevil just isn't worth it compared to walking away from a seasons bracket because getting another 10 heroic tokens just to sell them back isn't worth it. We're not talking about guys who are worried about missing Nick Fury covers here. I got #1 in Heroic Oscorp and that took way more effort than any PvE event I can think of. That was something I chose to do so I don't complain about why they should nerf all my competitors so I won't have to work as hard to get #1 compared to other events. It's been said quite a few times that the reward structure is now pretty flat so it's not like whoever got #1 gets 10000 HP so if you don't stop him now the gap just gets bigger over time. If you can walk away from Heroic Oscorp, you can also walk away from seasons 1.