Shifting to Pay-To-Win

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mainloop25 said:

If $10/month got you something like, say 200 crystals, 150 jewels, and a random new rare a month, I don't see that breaking the game or pushing it into P2W. I can see a bunch of people going for it, I might even go for that. 

in our current mtgpq environment, that amount of additional currency would give the monthly subscribers a significant edge on f2p and selective purchase players.  That divide would only increase in the following months.

Monthly costs are the reason I never played World of Warcraft and similar MMOs.  I'll spend money when I want to spend money, not out of an obligation to remain competitive.

Ok? As it should? What's the difference between doing that and just buying those things on your own once a month? The only difference is giving the devs a more stable source of revenue. 

the difference is player choice in individual purchases versus an almost mandatory expense to remain competitive.

And no, I don't believe alienating the f2p player base by widening the divide would be beneficial to this game.  Most people don't come into an app game immediately ready to spend money.  New players joining this game and seeing that they're already behind because they aren't a VIP member is a deterrent to even playing this game, nevertheless spending money.  It's a poor business model.

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

the difference is player choice in individual purchases versus an almost mandatory expense to remain competitive.

And no, I don't believe alienating the f2p player base by widening the divide would be beneficial to this game.  Most people don't come into an app game immediately ready to spend money.  New players joining this game and seeing that they're already behind because they aren't a VIP member is a deterrent to even playing this game, nevertheless spending money.  It's a poor business model.

This is exactly what I'm worried about with all of these proposals.  I've played games where the only way to be competitive was to spend money, and I stopped playing those games extremely quickly once I realized I had no chance (since I don't spend money on games 99% of the time).

The best part of MTGPQ is that it is competitive for ALL players with a little time and effort.  I would hate to see that go away because some people can't wait to get huge collections like everyone else and want to pay for it instead of grinding.

madwren

bken1234 said:

Bil said:

   
   I occasionally invest in mythic bundles but i always have the feeling that I'm paying too much for a single card and a bunch of currencies ... Which i accept in the end because its a way to support a game i enjoy playing.

This is an interesting point. I feel mythics are overpriced as well. I thought the $19.99 deal for the Dryad was really good and appropriately priced. I think paying more for PW is appropriate as well. I am happy to see a shift on other things and hope it is indicative of what we will see in the future. 

Mythics and planeswalkers are both overpriced. The latter are twice what they should be--in fact, I took advantage of the crystal sale and spent $20 for the number of crystals I'd need to purchase Nuatli (with crystals) instead of paying $40.

Mainloop25

@Mburn7 @FindingHeart8 In order for a new player to catch up to where we are, they are going to have to pay with either time or money. They can do a few things to make the ramp a little more gradual (like more tiers than4, for instance) but they are going to have to pay one way or another. This game does a pretty bad job of throwing players into the deep end before they are able to swim in it, so if they want to pay to catch up, I say let them.

Thésée

Mburn7 said:

The best part of MTGPQ is that it is competitive for ALL players with a little time and effort.  I would hate to see that go away because some people can't wait to get huge collections like everyone else and want to pay for it instead of grinding.

I agree with this and I would like to add that for the moment the only ressource that can make the difference by grinding is runes.

Some players are asking to easier access to rune. I am not sure it would be a good thing for free players starting the game. A free player still has the possibility to grind the runes (yes yes I know, it is a long and hard work...) to level his PWs and get better rewards in PVE. If runes are easy to get, a player who invests money in the game will have an easier time leveling the (much more numerous) PWs he bought. I think it would be one more step towards pay-to-win

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

@Mburn7 @FindingHeart8 In order for a new player to catch up to where we are, they are going to have to pay with either time or money. They can do a few things to make the ramp a little more gradual (like more tiers than4, for instance) but they are going to have to pay one way or another. This game does a pretty bad job of throwing players into the deep end before they are able to swim in it, so if they want to pay to catch up, I say let them.

I don't entirely disagree with you here.  To "catch up" to us, a player would really have to put some significant time and effort into this game, as we have.  However with the crystals gained from story mode and the free packs from training mode, I'd say a dedicated player could still step into the ring and be at least somewhat competitive.

However, with the lack of available crystals from current events (and no quick battle), I don't believe a new player could get much further than that without having to spend a considerable amount of money.  At that point, you could conclude that mtgpq has created a pay wall.

Mburn7

Mainloop25 said:

@Mburn7 @FindingHeart8 In order for a new player to catch up to where we are, they are going to have to pay with either time or money. They can do a few things to make the ramp a little more gradual (like more tiers than4, for instance) but they are going to have to pay one way or another. This game does a pretty bad job of throwing players into the deep end before they are able to swim in it, so if they want to pay to catch up, I say let them.

Yes, you have to pay with time to do stuff.  Its what I've done, what you've done, what most of us here have done.  Why is there suddenly something wrong with that?

When I started playing this game was nothing but QB and Story.  I never placed higher than 50 in QB (and usually not even in the top 100) since I was new and didn't have a great collection.  So I just kept playing and slowly saved up for a Big Box every other month, and worked pretty hard on making competitive decks with what I had.

Now, when there are more chances to gain currency and cards than ever before, why is it suddenly such a burden to have to wait a couple weeks to get a pack?  When you have every possible color combination and tons of planeswalkers to choose from why is it suddenly so impossible to make a good deck with ok cards?  If I could make a good deck with 1 mythic and a level 40 N1, it should be pretty easy to make one with a level 30 Bolas.

Back then I would have seen a pay-to-win option as immensely frustrating, but understandable.  Now, it just seems frivolous and detrimental to the game.  Giving people a masterpiece roll and/or a new premium pack every week or 2 is not healthy for the game.  

Theros

Looking from from another dimension, this game cannot be P2W cause it's not a "true P2P". We are all competing against a digital Greg, not true realtime players. Greg is the one who has to right to say P2W
Vs Greg is technically PvE.
As for prices, they are still overcosted at $20 for cards and $40 for PWs (need to be 1/2 of current prices imo). People will spend when the perceived value of an items is greater than price in a general market. But this is market that targets whales 
The stronger Greg is, the more the perception of pay-to-win  and players will need stronger cards to compete.
If D3 were to dumbify Greg, the less the perception of pay-to-win and getting strong cards is not essential to compete. To me this game is a single player game and cannot be pay-to-win

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

Mainloop25 said:

@Mburn7 @FindingHeart8 In order for a new player to catch up to where we are, they are going to have to pay with either time or money. They can do a few things to make the ramp a little more gradual (like more tiers than4, for instance) but they are going to have to pay one way or another. This game does a pretty bad job of throwing players into the deep end before they are able to swim in it, so if they want to pay to catch up, I say let them.

Yes, you have to pay with time to do stuff.  Its what I've done, what you've done, what most of us here have done.  Why is there suddenly something wrong with that?

When I started playing this game was nothing but QB and Story.  I never placed higher than 50 in QB (and usually not even in the top 100) since I was new and didn't have a great collection.  So I just kept playing and slowly saved up for a Big Box every other month, and worked pretty hard on making competitive decks with what I had.

Now, when there are more chances to gain currency and cards than ever before, why is it suddenly such a burden to have to wait a couple weeks to get a pack?  When you have every possible color combination and tons of planeswalkers to choose from why is it suddenly so impossible to make a good deck with ok cards?  If I could make a good deck with 1 mythic and a level 40 N1, it should be pretty easy to make one with a level 30 Bolas.

Back then I would have seen a pay-to-win option as immensely frustrating, but understandable.  Now, it just seems frivolous and detrimental to the game.  Giving people a masterpiece roll and/or a new premium pack every week or 2 is not healthy for the game.  

Back when you started playing there was a handful of planeswalkers as an option and only the Origins (and possibly Zendikar and maybe eventually Innistrad) block.  There was nothing else to spend your currency on except the premium packs and (once every 3 or 4 months) a new planeswalker. 

With only story mode and no coalitions, mtgpq was less long-term competitive.  So you didn't make the high scores in QB today, well it resets tomorrow and you get a fresh start.

Now we've got tasty new treasures in our faces almost every week.  An abundance of new cards and planeswalkers, which is awesome!  However the ability to purchase these cards with anything except cash has slowed to a trickle, which, again, is how you develop a pay wall.

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

Mainloop25 said:

@Mburn7 @FindingHeart8 In order for a new player to catch up to where we are, they are going to have to pay with either time or money. They can do a few things to make the ramp a little more gradual (like more tiers than4, for instance) but they are going to have to pay one way or another. This game does a pretty bad job of throwing players into the deep end before they are able to swim in it, so if they want to pay to catch up, I say let them.

Yes, you have to pay with time to do stuff.  Its what I've done, what you've done, what most of us here have done.  Why is there suddenly something wrong with that?

When I started playing this game was nothing but QB and Story.  I never placed higher than 50 in QB (and usually not even in the top 100) since I was new and didn't have a great collection.  So I just kept playing and slowly saved up for a Big Box every other month, and worked pretty hard on making competitive decks with what I had.

Now, when there are more chances to gain currency and cards than ever before, why is it suddenly such a burden to have to wait a couple weeks to get a pack?  When you have every possible color combination and tons of planeswalkers to choose from why is it suddenly so impossible to make a good deck with ok cards?  If I could make a good deck with 1 mythic and a level 40 N1, it should be pretty easy to make one with a level 30 Bolas.

Back then I would have seen a pay-to-win option as immensely frustrating, but understandable.  Now, it just seems frivolous and detrimental to the game.  Giving people a masterpiece roll and/or a new premium pack every week or 2 is not healthy for the game.  

Now we've got tasty new treasures in our faces almost every week.  An abundance of new cards and planeswalkers, which is awesome!  However the ability to purchase these cards with anything except cash has slowed to a trickle, which, again, is how you develop a pay wall.

My point is that back then the resource gain was even slower than it is now (since it was literally 10-30 yellows every few days), and packs cost more (600 for the big box instead of 300 for a premium pack).

Sure, today there is less resource gain than there was in Innistrad or Kaladesh, but its still several times higher than it was in Zendikar.  I feel like the issue is more that people got spoiled with the better rewards and now don't want to wait to get new cards.  At one point people were opening a premium pack a week, or even more than one, without spending money.  Now that that isn't possible, everyone wants to use cash for the same privilege, not realizing that it was an anomaly to begin with.  But if its paid for, instead of everyone having the chance to open stupid amounts of cards it would only be those willing or able to pay for it, making this game Pay-to-Win.

I do not want this.  I think everyone should just be patient.  The new releases will slow now that we are caught up to paper (more or less).  Just grind it out and save up.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

Mainloop25 said:

@Mburn7 @FindingHeart8 In order for a new player to catch up to where we are, they are going to have to pay with either time or money. They can do a few things to make the ramp a little more gradual (like more tiers than4, for instance) but they are going to have to pay one way or another. This game does a pretty bad job of throwing players into the deep end before they are able to swim in it, so if they want to pay to catch up, I say let them.

Yes, you have to pay with time to do stuff.  Its what I've done, what you've done, what most of us here have done.  Why is there suddenly something wrong with that?

When I started playing this game was nothing but QB and Story.  I never placed higher than 50 in QB (and usually not even in the top 100) since I was new and didn't have a great collection.  So I just kept playing and slowly saved up for a Big Box every other month, and worked pretty hard on making competitive decks with what I had.

Now, when there are more chances to gain currency and cards than ever before, why is it suddenly such a burden to have to wait a couple weeks to get a pack?  When you have every possible color combination and tons of planeswalkers to choose from why is it suddenly so impossible to make a good deck with ok cards?  If I could make a good deck with 1 mythic and a level 40 N1, it should be pretty easy to make one with a level 30 Bolas.

Back then I would have seen a pay-to-win option as immensely frustrating, but understandable.  Now, it just seems frivolous and detrimental to the game.  Giving people a masterpiece roll and/or a new premium pack every week or 2 is not healthy for the game.  

Now we've got tasty new treasures in our faces almost every week.  An abundance of new cards and planeswalkers, which is awesome!  However the ability to purchase these cards with anything except cash has slowed to a trickle, which, again, is how you develop a pay wall.

My point is that back then the resource gain was even slower than it is now (since it was literally 10-30 yellows every few days), and packs cost more (600 for the big box instead of 300 for a premium pack).

Sure, today there is less resource gain than there was in Innistrad or Kaladesh, but its still several times higher than it was in Zendikar.  I feel like the issue is more that people got spoiled with the better rewards and now don't want to wait to get new cards.  At one point people were opening a premium pack a week, or even more than one, without spending money.  Now that that isn't possible, everyone wants to use cash for the same privilege, not realizing that it was an anomaly to begin with.  But if its paid for, instead of everyone having the chance to open stupid amounts of cards it would only be those willing or able to pay for it, making this game Pay-to-Win.

I do not want this.  I think everyone should just be patient.  The new releases will slow now that we are caught up to paper (more or less).  Just grind it out and save up.

I see what you're saying (and think that overall we're agreeing on the subject).

I don't want this game to be Pay-to-Win either, and am also against the VIP-purchase idea that's being discussed in a few other threads.

However I don't think more patience is the solution here.  The mtgpq community has been patient.  Patient through Hibernum's neglect and eventual bail, patient through the time it took Octagon to learn the ropes and catch up, patient through the worst set to ever be introduced to this game (Ixalan), and now patient with the newest Rivals set being released but hardly a way to afford it without spending real cash for every pack you want.  Octagon has done wonders so far but these past few months have been shifty.

Kinesia

Thésée said:

Mburn7 said:

The best part of MTGPQ is that it is competitive for ALL players with a little time and effort.  I would hate to see that go away because some people can't wait to get huge collections like everyone else and want to pay for it instead of grinding.

I agree with this and I would like to add that for the moment the only ressource that can make the difference by grinding is runes.

Some players are asking to easier access to rune. I am not sure it would be a good thing for free players starting the game. A free player still has the possibility to grind the runes (yes yes I know, it is a long and hard work...) to level his PWs and get better rewards in PVE. If runes are easy to get, a player who invests money in the game will have an easier time leveling the (much more numerous) PWs he bought. I think it would be one more step towards pay-to-win

What I think would be _far_ better than access to runes is:
"When mastering a card with a planeswalker that PW also receives a burst of experience."

It adds additional purpose to mastering cards, helps new players automatically and provides motivation to do new and weird things sometimes. (It does mean some people would start avoiding mastering cards with Samut! but that seems fine.)

It also makes _sense_ that whoever you play the most with levels up the most.

It would change my daily TG experience if I was now using it to level up my new folk as _well_ as getting the runes.

Mainloop25

Yes, you have to pay with time to do stuff.  Its what I've done, what you've done, what most of us here have done.  Why is there suddenly something wrong with that?

What about what I said suggested that I think it's wrong to pay with time? The majority of what I've spent on this game is time but not everyone can do that.

We both share a coalition with someone who has spent tons of money on the game because he has a lot more of that then time to grind. We give him a light hearted ribbing about it but I don't actually think there's anything wrong with what he's chosen to focus his resources on. 

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

Yes, you have to pay with time to do stuff.  Its what I've done, what you've done, what most of us here have done.  Why is there suddenly something wrong with that?

What about what I said suggested that I think it's wrong to pay with time? The majority of what I've spent on this game is time but not everyone can do that.

We both share a coalition with someone who has spent tons of money on the game because he has a lot more of that then time to grind. We give him a light hearted ribbing about it but I don't actually think there's anything wrong with what he's chosen to focus his resources on. 

I support a balance of in-game purchases because (and solely because) I know the developers need revenue.

The product marketed here is a game, a game that requires participation and strategy.  If you can just buy your way to 1st place, it defeats the purpose of the product in the first place.

Who would watch a race where participants could buy the ability to start 3 feet before the finish line?

Kinesia

Money = Time, you need to spend one or the other in almost everything. You can also spend a mix.
There are people who can only spend a little of either for some reason (Like a student who has to study lots so has the time commitments of a job but not the money.)

It only gets bad, from my perspective, when you can't effectively play at _all_ because the divide is too big. But this game isn't that. There are strategies to overcome expensive and mythic things with much cheaper commons, the game changes into knowing the PW you will face and their flaws or expected decks.
This is a mental game of planning and anticipation, you don't need a big or powerful collection to take down anything at all, only patience and brains and a lot of trial and error.

The enemy (currently) that hurts us the most is extreme swings of luck _not_ cards (with the possible exception of Omniscience), everything else we can work around.

This would have to change a lot to be pay 2 win, be a lot more imbalanced with many more paid only Omnisciences.

babar3355

I agree... isn't the game already "pay-to-win" if your definition is a card and PW advantage?   It probably was before booster crafting but now it definitely is.  Any player can drop a boatload of cash to collect enough cards and orbs to "buy" every non-elite card in the game. (At least after RIX becomes craftable). Yet, most people are enthusiastically supportive of the implementation of booster crafting (including myself).

I tend to favor ways that the developers could generate revenue that doesn't also restrict dedicated players from eventually obtaining a complete collection.  Some of the ideas in this thread seem to be logical ways to do this.

Now if they started selling "Restart the match for $5" I would have a BIG time problem.  That is pay to win.  This is pay to have a slight marginal advantage.