Return to Owner's Hand BUG

MDsupa

This seems to be a bug for a while now.  but Depths of Desire did NOT return my Ghalta to my hands after AI stole it with Lay Claimed.  I think the Flag for Owner ship was changed when creatures are stolen.

DBJones

They've never said one way or another if this was a bug. All the permanent steals work the same way, including the ones like Unesh and Etali that steal into your hand.

MDsupa

well from PAPER version, return to OWNER!!! hand means it goes back to the original owner of the card that start the match with.  it's not that hard to put a flag in for "Caster" and "Owner".  Whatever.

Szamsziel

Well in paper cards cannot be in opponent hand, library or graveyard. (of course not counting unstable). I'd say that it's working as expected - if you steal something it's your. Temporary control is something different. 

MDsupa

I'd would Love it If I steal your Etali, it's in my collection for future deck build then.

Szamsziel

Playing for ante you want?

Brigby

Sounds like a design question to me. @Oktagon_Daiane do you know what the official ruling is on this?

If a player's creature is stolen with the opponent's Lay Claim, is the opponent now the creature's new owner?

Tilwin90

I would add that this is a problem of wording and consistency, as right now the wording is all over the place and makes it very difficult for the player to understand the intent of the card.
In paper magic, there are two terms:
- Owner of a card (player from whose library the card originated).
   -- The owner of the card never changes thorough the course of the game.
- Controller of a card 
    -- On the stack: the moment the owner casts the card, he or she is the controller. This control can be changed via specific spells (see Aether Snatch).
    -- On the battlefield: the permanent card enters the battlefield under the control of the same player that controlled the card as it resolved. This control can change over time.
    -- Into the graveyard: all cards go into the graveyard (or exile zone) of the owner, unless the card specifies otherwise. This means that for example if the controller of an embalm creature changes, on death, that creature goes into the graveyard of its owner. Therefore it is the owner who will embalm it.

There are many reasons why this differentiation is done, but it's basically so it ensures that control of a card can only change onto the battlefield or stack. In hidden zones such as the library or hand this is more of a logistic issue as it would make sleeving give extra information to the players to identifying a specific card.

In MTGPQ this is of course not an issue. Furthermore, MTGPQ does not have the concept of colored mana costs, so stealing cards directly into hands makes 100% sense.
However, it also complicates matters and makes the differentiation between "owner" and "controller" in wording of utmost importance!
What this game needs is a comprehensive list of rules regarding interactions (similar to paper magic), where all these exceptions and cases are covered. These rules should try to be as coherent as possible instead of having to think for every new mechanic "how should it work".
My recommendation would be to look over all already existing bounce cards and reword those cards properly in terms of owner/controller without functional changes. Functional changes are of course an option but should be clearly analyzed.

Finally, there is a huge issue with cards being castable or not, not being explicitly written on the card consistently (when player hand can overflow below 6 cards or not for instance) or following the same pattern. This would drastically help players signal bugs or potential issues instead of always being in limbo via "is it a bug or a feature?" mindset.

MDsupa

here's one scenario.  Angrath 2nd ability steal creature and it dies at the end of turn.  The text, "Gain control of target creature ....."

but at the end of turn Journey to Eternity doesn't trigger because it returns to owner first then die?

Sames with Elenda, she dies, but the Vampire token is created on the Caster side.

Scottyp_123

I had this happen in revers to me today. While playing against Azor I took control of one of his creatures. He used a card that puts the target creature on the top of it's "owners" library. On the next turn I drew the creature and cast it. 

I'm pretty sure that creature should have been returned to HIS library, not mine.  

Sirchombli

From what I can tell ,angrath is the only instance of the creature returning to the original owner's yard upon death . Steal a creature and it'll go to your hand if it's bounced. Goes to your yard when it dies. It's always been this way in this game . The sooner you accept that this ain't paper , the better. There are a ton of situations in which this game functions contrary to how it would on paper. Just look at how combat death is handled