MPQ March Madness (structure and nature thread)

Aweberman

To that end:

http://challonge.com/mpq

I am debating still whether to make it a double-elimination tournament so as to be able to provide a better ranking afterward.

ZootSax

Aweberman said:

To that end:

http://challonge.com/mpq

I am debating still whether to make it a double-elimination tournament so as to be able to provide a better ranking afterward.

I like that it starts out with Medusa & Captain Marvel going head-to-head.  I'm sure you'll run into similar issues using Clash order instead of release order though, so why not?  

You could try making "Regions" with groups of 16 characters {such as Avengers (MCU), Avengers (non-MCU), X-Men, Guardians, Fantastic Four, etc...}, but even as I type that it sounds like too much work  

Aweberman

There didn't seem like any obvious way to seed them -- in this case, I'm averse to any kind of alphabetization -- and having a list of the release order is always something people are asking about, so...

kk3thess

It could be from highest to lowest HP, because the highest tend to be more offensive while the lowest tend to be passive/healers. This way we can get more compatible matches, function wise, while maintaining a good competition. But I don't know if we have a data with that information.

STERLING21JJ

I would like an event like this for sure.  Great Idea.

OldManWolvs

Is voting live yet?

Sm0keyJ0e

First of all, this is a great idea and I look forward to the results.

Second though is you have to tier these guys, if at minimum a binary tier system (high tier/low tier). Having Medusa or Carol get eliminated in the first round is like having Federer play Nadal in the first round of Wimbledon.

rbdragon

I love the idea. For seeding, I would think having 1 vs 64, 2 vs 63 and so on make some sense....but since there's no real clear way to seed them, why not just use a randomizer like https://www.random.org/lists/ - enter the list of every character, let it seed them for you. 

Also, for @Brigby - is there a way to set up a dedicated room on the forum for this? This eliminates the forum clog - a single post here to link to the current poll on a dedicated room?

Aweberman

To comment on the last five posts:

kk3thess said:

It could be from highest to lowest HP, because the highest tend to be more offensive while the lowest tend to be passive/healers. This way we can get more compatible matches, function wise, while maintaining a good competition. But I don't know if we have a data with that information.

That's an interesting idea, and I know I've seen data that groups them accordingly, but I think I will stick with my current arrangement.

OldManWolvs said:

Is voting live yet?

Not yet.  I had hoped to get things rolling today, but I was asked by one of the moderators to hold off for a bit, and so I am.

Sm0keyJ0e said:

You have to tier these guys, if at minimum a binary tier system (high tier/low tier). Having Medusa or Carol get eliminated in the first round is like having Federer play Nadal in the first round of Wimbledon.

I hear you on this one; Vulture/Mockingbird is also not a fun one.  However, once I start meddling, where will it stop, eh?  I am toying with the idea of making the tournament double elimination, so as to have powerhouses that lose in the first round a chance to progress further anyway.

rbdragon said:

I love the idea. For seeding, I would think having 1 vs 64, 2 vs 63 and so on make some sense....but since there's no real clear way to seed them, why not just use a randomizer like https://www.random.org/lists/ - enter the list of every character, let it seed them for you. 

It would be easy to assign them a different random order.  I am familiar with random.org, but Challonge will also do it for you.  Still, the sequence I've selected (order of release) is effectively random when it comes to power level.

rbdragon said:

Is there a way to set up a dedicated room on the forum for this? This eliminates the forum clog - a single post here to link to the current poll on a dedicated room?

I am in discussion with the moderators on this issue -- hence the reason for the delay in the start of the event.  And the fact that it's a federal holiday.

ZootSax

Aweberman said:

There didn't seem like any obvious way to seed them -- in this case, I'm averse to any kind of alphabetization -- and having a list of the release order is always something people are asking about, so...

No, I agree that release date is probably one of the better ways to do it.  It was just humorous to me that it immediately matched two top 4*'s against one another.

justsing

Aweberman said:

It would be easy to assign them a different random order.  I am familiar with random.org, but Challonge will also do it for you.  Still, the sequence I've selected (order of release) is effectively random when it comes to power level.

Order of release is not random when it comes to power level due to power creep. It’s more likely for newer characters to be stronger than older characters. Since it looks you’re pairing consecutive characters together (1 vs. 2, 3 vs. 4, etc.), it’s more likely that we’ll see weaker characters vs. weaker characters and stronger vs. stronger. It may be better to keep order of release as their seed, but have 1 vs. 64, 2 vs. 63, etc.

DarthDeVo

Hmmm, America vs. Kraven, that's a real toss up! I can't wait to see how that one ends up. 

Aweberman

justsing said:

Aweberman said:

It would be easy to assign them a different random order.  I am familiar with random.org, but Challonge will also do it for you.  Still, the sequence I've selected (order of release) is effectively random when it comes to power level.

Order of release is not random when it comes to power level due to power creep. It’s more likely for newer characters to be stronger than older characters. Since it looks you’re pairing consecutive characters together (1 vs. 2, 3 vs. 4, etc.), it’s more likely that we’ll see weaker characters vs. weaker characters and stronger vs. stronger. It may be better to keep order of release as their seed, but have 1 vs. 64, 2 vs. 63, etc.

I suppose what I meant to say was that strong characters are interspersed throughout the bracket.  But you are correct that there appear to be more strong characters lower in the bracket (among the more recent releases).  I will cogitate on this conundrum.

Edit: I've been analyzing the bracket more closely, and I find myself more and more in agreement.  If I want to retain a nod to release order, I might consider dividing the field into groups of 8, then selecting one from each "generation" of releases.  So the first 8 would be Wolverine, Kingpin, Mr. Fantastic, Venom, War Machine, Blade, Cloak & Dagger, and Rogue (the 1st, 9th, 17th, 25th, 33rd, 41st, 49th, and 57th 4* released). I could then randomize within this "flight" of participants. ... Or I could just randomize the whole list.

I remain open to suggestions.

KGB

I think a randomizer of some kind would be a good idea.

I know top characters are going to get matched early but look at the 9&10 pairings

9) Mr Fantastic vs  IceMan
10) 4Cyc vs Rulk

with winners facing each other in round 2. So by round 2 your losing 2 of Ice/4Cyc/Rulk and that seems a bit much when compared to the 15&16 pairings

15) PunMax vs Howard
16) Drax vs Winter Soldier)

so one of those 4 is moving on to round 3.


There's another way you could do this assuming the board poll mechanism allows it. Group the 64 into 4 polls of 16 characters (release order) and let players order all 16 with top 4 moving on to a 16 seed semi-final (or just vote for any 4 of the 16 and the top 4 vote getters move on to the 16 seed semi final).  Once down to 16 semi final you can pair head2head or again vote top 4 and then do those final 4 in a pair of head2heads.


KGB

carrion_pigeons

You should edit the link to the poll into the OP, and update the first post whenever you change the poll.  That way people aren't digging through what will eventually become quite a long thread to find the right poll to vote on.

Also, the current seeding has inherent bias due to power creep.  You'd be better off matching 1-64, 2-63, etc.  To play fantasy MPQ for a moment, the semifinals match for the "old" half of the bracket is liable to be RHulk vs Thor, which are by no means in the Top 4 of MPQ characters.  On the other side, we see characters like Medusa likely to be knocked out in the first round, even though she probably *is* Top 4.

purplemur

Here's last years article on how the NCAA does it's bracket:

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2017-03-12/march-madness-bracket-how-68-teams-are-selected-division-i

Since we already have a fixed pool of candidates the main takeaway is the seeding of the brackets. So that Kansas doesn't start round one vs Uconn. So that Medusa doesn't start round one vs GRocket. and also so that one division isn't made up of Kraven,Venoms,Sandman and D.Dino.  while another is Bobby,TJean,Carol, America. 
I like the suggestion of divisions=mpgfamily(Sin6/Mutants/GoG/Avengers etc) but It shouldn't be the best mutant vs the best villain. In the NCAA the geographic designation is pretty meaningless anyway (however care is taken to restrict travel and limit Home court advantage which don't apply here). You could just have the divisions be color or numerals. Call it the stan lee bracket, the jack kirby bracket, the john buscema, etc
is it possible to use the outside polling websites so that interested forumites (be like the NCAA committee) could vote for their top 16 and then like the hall of fame: most votes get seeded as your 4 first place seeds, and rank them in descending number of votes? You really just want to create parity, the bottom dwellers can be inserted wherever: Rhulk will beat bucky/flaptain/S.Gwen. What you want to be aware of is that by matching 1/16, 2/15, 3/14, etc some of the best matchups in the early rounds will be the 8/9's like Mr.F vs Lockjaw. 
I really hope they do let us have individual polling. There should be space for the forum to discuss/debate on its own Thing vs Antman or Peggy vs Rogue. Easier to read, keep things on topic. It's not like the nerf gambit thread will miss it's ubiquitous spot on the front page. 

It's a great idea and one that deserves care to be set-up. Don't rush it out just so that it's live on Thursday. Maybe try to coincide with the NCAA tournament start? 

Daredevil217

My vote is for release order where the most recent pair up against the oldest in round one. Hilarious that Kraven would be the third seed after Shuri (another reason you have to hold off, as we don’t know how she will look) and Panther. 

I imagine aside from the occasional Kraven-esque character you will get a good indication of how power creep has affected the game. 

scottee

I like the idea, but the whole thing is useless without seeding by power or popularity. Either ask a top vet to seed them or use a ranking thread from the forum, or just arbitrarily rank them yourself. But any of those options is better than using release order or something random.

Seedings don't harm anyone. It's only a guess ahead of time on who is better, but the actual polls will determine who wins. It's the difference between having legitimate or meaningless results.

sirwookieechris

Maybe @Brigby could ask the devs if we could get a list of the 4* in order of popularity. We know they track this info and we don't need numbers, just order of most used to least. We could use that ranking to assign seeds. Maybe a little randomization on top of that. Seeds 1-8 will face 56-54 but which one will be random.

fight4thedream

In the event that we decide to use a poll off-site, does anyone know a good *free* poll service that allows voters to comment on the poll? Ideally, we would like people be able share why they think one character would win over the other.