Scaling, rubberbanding and "punishment" in PvE

Unknown

I'm sick and tired of D3 "punishing" us when we use certain powers or certain abilities in PvE. For God's sake, we are just using the "tools" we have at our disposal, but using the wrong "tools" means that your PvE enemy levels can skyrocket through the roof and make almost the whole event unplayable for you.

Instead of punishing us for playing the game it was meant to be played, how about instead you balance the characters' abilities and review and change the scaling and rubberbanding system?

I know several players who enjoyed PvE with the old system, where the nodes had fixed points and that was it, but now with the new system they have given up completely on PvE because their nodes are ridiculously hard to win!

Why not use fixed points? Why must we have this scaling and rubberbanding, is it really that necessary? Why not instead make every mission playable only four times (and each time we get one of the four rewards) and that's it? So if you can play much, you get many points and will win good rewards. If you can't or won't play much, then that's your loss.

Or if that is not okay, at least FIX the scaling and rubberbanding, because it just DOESN'T work right now. And I'm not just talking about the "Oscorp Heroic Mode City event".

Also, punishing us for using certain characters and abilities is just WRONG. Fix the game balance or fix the scaling, but don't punish us for playing the game with the tools YOU gave us, D3! If you still feel you must have this punishment, then at least tell us right out in the game what will increase the enemy levels and what will decrease them, because now you just sit there and say "here, use these characters" but you don't inform us that some elements will increase the enemy levels so much that we can't even play the friggin' game...you shouldn't HAVE to visit the forum to get this info!

tbighead21

Daige wrote:

I'm sick and tired of D3 "punishing" us when we use certain powers or certain abilities in PvE. For God's sake, we are just using the "tools" we have at our disposal, but using the wrong "tools" means that your PvE enemy levels can skyrocket through the roof and make almost the whole event unplayable for you.

Instead of punishing us for playing the game it was meant to be played, how about instead you balance the characters' abilities and review and change the scaling and rubberbanding system?

I know several players who enjoyed PvE with the old system, where the nodes had fixed points and that was it, but now with the new system they have given up completely on PvE because their nodes are ridiculously hard to win!

Why not use fixed points? Why must we have this scaling and rubberbanding, is it really that necessary? Why not instead make every mission playable only four times (and each time we get one of the four rewards) and that's it? So if you can play much, you get many points and will win good rewards. If you can't or won't play much, then that's your loss.

Or if that is not okay, at least FIX the scaling and rubberbanding, because it just DOESN'T work right now. And I'm not just talking about the "Oscorp Heroic Mode City event".

Also, punishing us for using certain characters and abilities is just WRONG. Fix the game balance or fix the scaling, but don't punish us for playing the game with the tools YOU gave us, D3! If you still feel you must have this punishment, then at least tell us right out in the game what will increase the enemy levels and what will decrease them, because now you just sit there and say "here, use these characters" but you don't inform us that some elements will increase the enemy levels so much that we can't even play the friggin' game...you shouldn't HAVE to visit the forum to get this info!

Nicely said.

Linkster79

What is really beyond a joke is that due to scaling some users are in essence locked out of events before they event start. When a large majority of your vocal userbase are complaining about the same thing chances are they are right.

Unknown

lol

I've always said, in any game, levels don't make the game hard, ratings don't make the game hard and stats don't make the game hard... It's the player... A.I. have zero intelligence, this is why D3 have made them stupidly high levels... Why does an A.I. character always match up a set of 4, when the color makes no sense to match it up... Why does the A.I. match colors that make no sense in the first place, like a Thor matching a pink tile when yellows and reds are available... This makes no sense... Why don't D3 just give the opponents more intelligence instead of heightening their levels, they could quite easily be just as hard to beat if they were smarter and not just a high level dumbass...

On a side note, no idea what you're on about with rubberbanding, it seems this community likes to make up acronyms and words, so I'll ignore this since I think my point about levels is enough to finish my rant without going on to that.

Unknown

D3 appear to have targets like "game time", "turns taken", "damage taken", "opponent actions activated" -- and keep slanting the field toward them with its tools like scaling.

"Fun" or "intelligent play" or even actual "challenge" is not a target.

And no doubt the game is heading toward envisioned numbers alright, neam you can read on about the collateral damage in "not fun anymore" topic.

simonsez

I agree, scaling just isn't working, at least not for me. I like the idea of trying to balance the playing field, but right now if feels highly unbalanced against the people in the middle... ie, relatively new players who've been playing a lot, are starting to max their 2's, and starting to collect some 3's. I've played the game a ton since I first started, so I guess I overachieved relative to my roster strength. So now I end up in PvP brackets where I have no chance of posting a top 50 score, and in the PvE, I have no chance at all in 80% of the nodes. Seriously, how am I supposed to take down a lv198 Ares with my lv82 Thor, with no stuns or heals available in this crippled roster? How am I supposed to signal to the game, "Hey, I'm REALLY not that good, so can you please scale me properly so I can keep playing?"

Dragon_Nexus

Am I the only one here who remembers the old system where the nodes with the best point scores were usually defended by a team of level 230 opponents?
Sure going up against the level 100 guys sucks for the newbies with only 1* and a smattering of 2* characters and very few of the decent characters that are buffed, but we all started that way. I started when the Red ISO event came out last year and I got two nodes in before being completely stumped by the level 40 characters who I had to throw my level 12 Iron Man, Storm and Black Widow at.

I just went off and did more story until my team was built up better.

Linkster79

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Am I the only one here who remembers the old system where the nodes with the best point scores were usually defended by a team of level 230 opponents?
Sure going up against the level 100 guys sucks for the newbies with only 1* and a smattering of 2* characters and very few of the decent characters that are buffed, but we all started that way. I started when the Red ISO event came out last year and I got two nodes in before being completely stumped by the level 40 characters who I had to throw my level 12 Iron Man, Storm and Black Widow at.

I just went off and did more story until my team was built up better.

I remember the first Heroic and had a similar experience. Why is it not possible to go back to this system? Players can be smart and realise that if they are new to the game they wont be able to compete alongside seasoned players.

sinnerjfl

Linkster79 wrote:

I remember the first Heroic and had a similar experience. Why is it not possible to go back to this system? Players can be smart and realise that if they are new to the game they wont be able to compete alongside seasoned players.

I'm gonna speculate that with the old system they used, a lot more people just gave up and never came back to play. They hit that wall that you hit (which I did too) and gave up in frustration. These players never invested any money in the game and they just moved on to something else. I'm guessing that this is not what D3 wants. They want to keep as many players as possible playing and for that to happen they lower the difficulty when you start off. It's a lot more likely you'll keep playing for a while this way and that you'll eventually spend money.

You can blame this one on the F2P model. If a player hasn't invested any money in a game, it's much more easy for that player to just give up. Lure in these new players with low difficulty, let them finish top ranks in pve and pvp, of course they'll want to stick around. Then eventually they'll be in the same situation as many veterans of the game are, totally boned. And they'll always have new players coming in to replace the old ones since the entry cost is 0.

I also think scaling is meant to keep things interesting for the high-level players as well. It seems like a good idea but they just have never managed to make the scaling work as intended so far. It's been many months it's been implemented and it still doesn't work properly, I'm not sure what we can conclude out of that. Maybe it's just too ambitious and they don't have the knowledge to pull it off.

Unknown

sinnerjfl wrote:

I also think scaling is meant to keep things interesting for the high-level players as well. It seems like a good idea but they just have never managed to make the scaling work as intended so far. It's been many months it's been implemented and it still doesn't work properly, I'm not sure what we can conclude out of that. Maybe it's just too ambitious and they don't have the knowledge to pull it off.

Unfortunately they don't talk to their community when it gets to anything technical like game mechanics. Which is really a shame, I guess there would be much less resentment about scaling if D3 would shed some light on where the journey is going and which point has been reached so far. And maybe even show some interest in what the community has to say about it. They probably deem scaling perfect as it is, from their income oriented perspective.

Unknown

Linkster79 wrote:

What is really beyond a joke is that due to scaling some users are in essence locked out of events before they event start. When a large majority of your vocal userbase are complaining about the same thing chances are they are right.

So true. In the past, I've encountered some PvE events where I was joining late and could hardly play anything due to the enemy levels having skyrocketed so much I simply could not win anything. How is that fair to anyone?

Now I've learned that I must enter PvE's early to be able to play the events, there is no longer such a thing as waiting to get higher points, because then I will get nothing since the levels have risen too high for me.

Since I started reading about the "PvE tactics" (that such a text even exists proves that the system is faulty, you shouldn't have to use special tactics to make the PvE playable) and started following the advice in there, the enemy levels has actually started to fall for me again, albeit quite slowly. I still face some really hard fights but now I can win them again and I can get decent PvE rankings...if I do everything right. But why should I have to "do things right", why can't I just play the d*mn missions with the characters I've got? So what if I have a healer/stunner/team attacker? Let me use them!

Unknown

Adamantium wrote:

lol

I've always said, in any game, levels don't make the game hard, ratings don't make the game hard and stats don't make the game hard... It's the player... A.I. have zero intelligence, this is why D3 have made them stupidly high levels... Why does an A.I. character always match up a set of 4, when the color makes no sense to match it up... Why does the A.I. match colors that make no sense in the first place, like a Thor matching a pink tile when yellows and reds are available... This makes no sense... Why don't D3 just give the opponents more intelligence instead of heightening their levels, they could quite easily be just as hard to beat if they were smarter and not just a high level dumbass...

On a side note, no idea what you're on about with rubberbanding, it seems this community likes to make up acronyms and words, so I'll ignore this since I think my point about levels is enough to finish my rant without going on to that.

Rubberbanding is essentially that late-comers can still catch up to the ranking leaders, because the missions are worth more points (but also have higher enemy levels). I'm against those higher enemy levels and I'm also against that someone can get the same points in one hour that someone else had to spend ten hours in getting. Fixed points would be more fair to all.

Unknown

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Am I the only one here who remembers the old system where the nodes with the best point scores were usually defended by a team of level 230 opponents?
Sure going up against the level 100 guys sucks for the newbies with only 1* and a smattering of 2* characters and very few of the decent characters that are buffed, but we all started that way. I started when the Red ISO event came out last year and I got two nodes in before being completely stumped by the level 40 characters who I had to throw my level 12 Iron Man, Storm and Black Widow at.

I just went off and did more story until my team was built up better.

That's what I like: That missions with more points actually are harder to win, and it also means that if you can't beat them now, you have to keep advancing so you can win another time. When I started, in december, I had very low chances in lots of the events but I kept fighting in the story mode, advanced my roster, got better at playing and I can now get top 5 results. I even got top 2 once. Before the game decided to screw me royally and make everything ten times harder, so that I now can't win sh*t.

But alas, it is the way of the world that the ones who whine the highest will get what they want, so the new players with their weak characters complain about everything being hard and that they can't win anything, so D3 adjusts the game and lets the new players win because they're so d*mn afraid to lose their player base that they willingly make everything much harder for the high level players, who have invested loads of time, energy and even money in the game. Good luck then, keep giving the new players an easy challenge and give them what they want, but the experienced and veteran players will get tired of it and leave this decaying game.

Unknown

Moghwyn wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

I also think scaling is meant to keep things interesting for the high-level players as well. It seems like a good idea but they just have never managed to make the scaling work as intended so far. It's been many months it's been implemented and it still doesn't work properly, I'm not sure what we can conclude out of that. Maybe it's just too ambitious and they don't have the knowledge to pull it off.

Unfortunately they don't talk to their community when it gets to anything technical like game mechanics. Which is really a shame, I guess there would be much less resentment about scaling if D3 would shed some light on where the journey is going and which point has been reached so far. And maybe even show some interest in what the community has to say about it. They probably deem scaling perfect as it is, from their income oriented perspective.

Yeah, D3 should be more like "hello dear players, we think this is a problem, we would like to solve it by doing this, what is your opinions on that and do you have other ideas on how we could solve it in a better way?". IF they would do that, they would gain SO much more respect from us players and the game would become SO much more awesome. So why don't they do it? Because they think they already have the best ideas ever and feel they don't have to listen to their customers.

I have never bought any hero points. There was a time when I actually needed to do it in order to expand my roster, but instead I sold of some odd characters and struggled on. Now I will never have to buy hero points for any reason, because I get enough hero points from the events.

Had the prices been lower and more attractive, I might actually have paid some money to get the hero points I needed, and both D3 and me would have been more pleased with how things turned out. It's better to have 1000 players pay 10 dollars each, than 10 players paying 100 dollars each.

Dragon_Nexus

Okay I'm somewhat taking back what I said now.
I was in the top 15 all the way through this event, now I'm top 50 with the top ten players with about 4000 more points than me. And the nodes are giving me about 300 currently, with the end one with the new Daken with level 210 characters that I cannot beat.

So yeah, there is something screwed up with the levels of these characters I think. I'd need a team of maxed out three star characters to have a chance at beating them.

Unknown

Scaling has been pretty ridiculous in this event, I think at least in part because the point tabulation snafu near the beginning gave the leaders big leads that required lots of grinding to reduce. As a veteran player with an advanced roster, I still have nodes that are difficult verging on infuriating. I gave in and boosted like crazy to finish the Daken node last night, because I didn't want to have to rely on obscenely good luck to win.

But that's all academic, isn't it? Scaling sucks. It's been said before, it'll be said again, and with any luck one of these times D3 will hear it. It's an awful system that takes away your motivation to play well and claims even competition between veterans and novices as a virtue. It makes grinding undesirable, thereby rendering high level progression rewards unattainable, and eliminates an entire avenue of cover acquisition for the whole player-base. In the process, it pushes you (sometimes with alarming speed) into a series of fights wherein one lucky cascade for the enemy team will mean your death, effectively removing any control you might be able to exert over your own game. It's horrible, and it makes the game worse.

I like that someone on this thread mentioned going back to the old days before scaling. There are a lot of players (or were, they might have quit by now) who would name the original Hulk event as their favorite PvE event--this was before Scaling was an option. I don't remember public outcry over the various difficulty levels or the uneven playing field between novices and veterans. I don't remember people denouncing the deteriorating state of the game because of how bad that event was. All I remember is how cool everyone thought it was, and how the fights that I had trouble finishing didn't bother me because I understand how games work and don't expect to be able to complete all content immediately and without any leg-work.

Whatever. I only continue to say these things because I believe them to be both true and important to the state of the game. I'm not just trying to be negative, and I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm just venting my spleen. I still have the hope, however vain it appears to be, that saying these things enough times will eventually cause someone with some authority to consider that they are true and that they speak to a real and pressing problem in the "story events" portion of this game.

Unknown

I think D3 just listens too much to new players that quit playing fast because they find the game to be too hard for them (and let's face it, you need to be more than just a casual Candy Crush player to play this and advance). Sure, making the game eaiser for newcomers will guarantee that fewer new players quit, but what about the old players who have fought hard to get where they are and discover that they now get treated with a harder challenge than the newbies? Why let one player get rank 1 with 700 points, while another doesn't even get to top 10 even though that player has 1100 points? So high level players should fight harder and still get less? I don't buy that!

Dragon_Nexus

I went to bed with less than an hour to go on the event. I was ranked 40th.
Woke up this morning at rank 89. In less than an hour.

Something is kinda screwy with this if the optimal strategy is to ignore the event and pile it all on in the last 2 hours.

Unknown

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

I went to bed with less than an hour to go on the event. I was ranked 40th.
Woke up this morning at rank 89. In less than an hour.

Something is kinda screwy with this if the optimal strategy is to ignore the event and pile it all on in the last 2 hours.

In this event with light rubberband you could not really ignore much without losing out. And the last refresh (in the last 2-3 hours) was kinda mandatory to get or keep the position. But those who kept the place played alright 12 hours before and another 12h before that too most likely.

Unknown

One of my alliance mates missed out on the first 2 events (by which I mean he only completed each mission node once), then ground his **** off in the last few hours. He finished in the top 30. I'm happy for him, but it speaks to the complete bankruptcy of the PvP system as it stands. Considering that there are now no first time completion bonuses and the sub-events pay out in nearly useless tokens, there is virtually no incentive to play before the end at all.

Ridiculous.