Un-Nerf 3* Gambit

2

Comments

  • DeNappa
    DeNappa Posts: 1,390 Chairperson of the Boards
    IMO, his nerf was necessary because passive AP generation 'goon style' is broken by default. That's why 5* Gambit is still broken, too. However, they overdid it and made the 3* pretty much useless. There would have been better options to tweak his black while still being a nice battery. For example, '7 black - place a black trap tile, while at least one of them is on the board generate 1 red and purple AP at the start of your turn'. Or '(black passive) - whenever you make a black match, spend 2 team-up AP to generate 1 red and purple AP'.  Stuff like that.
  • carrion_pigeons
    carrion_pigeons Posts: 942 Critical Contributor
    Boy, we sure need a 14th thread offering the same exact solution to Gambit.  A cursory search of the front page sure doesn't show me four of those threads in clear view.  I guess I'm off to go make another.
  • 0_efx_0
    0_efx_0 Posts: 236 Tile Toppler

    Boy, we sure need a 14th thread offering the same exact solution to Gambit.  A cursory search of the front page sure doesn't show me four of those threads in clear view.  I guess I'm off to go make another.
    This is the first and only thread I’ve ever seen that used the term “un-nerf”, it just so happened to be about 3* Gambit.
  • 11121
    11121 Posts: 4 Just Dropped In
    Thanks Carrier Pigeon - you must have a different front page to me, as this is the only thread specifically related to 3* Gambit over the 1st 5 pages in the forum i look at.
  • Ducky
    Ducky Posts: 2,255 Community Moderator
    **Leveraging a character as it is designed in the game is not cheating, so please do not call out players for cheating as a result. Additionally, calling out players for cheating for any reasons is against the rules. If you believe a player has actually cheated, the proper route would be to submit a ticket in game to Customer Service so the player can be investigated.***
  • 0_efx_0
    0_efx_0 Posts: 236 Tile Toppler
    edited February 2018
    I’ve been warned. Man I’m scared. I don’t recall name dropping(calling out) any players for the use of 0/0/5 3* Gambit.
  • 0_efx_0
    0_efx_0 Posts: 236 Tile Toppler
    edited February 2018
    Define Cheating: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

    Okay the players who used 0/0/5 3* Gambit are very unfair...that better? Deadpool Duck?
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    0_efx_0 said:
    Define Cheating: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

    Okay the players who used 0/0/5 3* Gambit are very unfair...that better? Deadpool Duck?
    Define: Unfair: not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
    Define: Dishonestly: in an untrustworthy, deceitful, or insincere way.
    okay explain how building a 0/0/5 gambit is unfair or dishonest. and then also help me understand what the advantage is?

    ohh the humanity! ohh the injustice! whhhy whhhy!!!!! Khhaaaaan!!!
  • 0_efx_0
    0_efx_0 Posts: 236 Tile Toppler
    purplemur said:
    0_efx_0 said:
    Define Cheating: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

    Okay the players who used 0/0/5 3* Gambit are very unfair...that better? Deadpool Duck?
    Define: Unfair: not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
    Define: Dishonestly: in an untrustworthy, deceitful, or insincere way.
    okay explain how building a 0/0/5 gambit is unfair or dishonest. and then also help me understand what the advantage is?

    ohh the humanity! ohh the injustice! whhhy whhhy!!!!! Khhaaaaan!!!
    “Oh look I can gain purple and red AP. And my other characters can use that while I only keep my 3* Gambit at 0/0/5. Oh yes I’ll do that, I’ll take advantage of the character while it remains that way. The Developers didn’t really think this one through. Oh yes it’s very (unfair) of me but it’s their fault, idc about the other who use 3* Gambit fairly, (equality).” 

    Hence why Gambit was changed after all. Where’s your logic?
  • 0_efx_0
    0_efx_0 Posts: 236 Tile Toppler
    edited February 2018
    Glad Ive learned my warning with coining the term “unfair” as opposed to “cheater”. You’re welcome everyone. I just read the Rules. (Edited) LOL
  • DarthDeVo
    DarthDeVo Posts: 2,178 Chairperson of the Boards
    purplemur said:
    0_efx_0 said:
    Define Cheating: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

    Okay the players who used 0/0/5 3* Gambit are very unfair...that better? Deadpool Duck?
    Define: Unfair: not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
    Define: Dishonestly: in an untrustworthy, deceitful, or insincere way.
    okay explain how building a 0/0/5 gambit is unfair or dishonest. and then also help me understand what the advantage is?

    ohh the humanity! ohh the injustice! whhhy whhhy!!!!! Khhaaaaan!!!
    Did you never try playing against a Spider-Gwen/Thing/Gambatt team? It was so much fun being stunlocked after about the third turn. It was basically a free shield, because there was hardly a team that I could think of that could effectively counter that team, as the AI tended to play it pretty well. 

    You couldn't target Gambatt right away, because Rock Solid would trigger and then you would have protects to contend with. 

    Thing's health pool is so big that he's hard to take him down within the three or so turns you had before the stuns started rolling. And once you're stunned, you're screwed. You can't collect AP to fire powers, while theirs went through the roof between stacked deck and their free turns.

    Sure, you might have one character not stunned, but that didn't last long once the Cherry Bombs started dropping. And once you lost one character you really were stunlocked for the rest of the match. 

    That's a pretty nice advantage. 
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2018
    Team damage is awful.  This game is all about prioritizing time and resources and team damage usually costs resources (health packs).  Thanos is so good because the speed at which he allows you to win outweighs the team damage (in most cases).  3* Gambit doesn't do that in the nerfed version so he really just wastes your team's health. Simply fixing his black as mentioned many times before (just don't allow 0/0/5 use by wording) would make him a really good 3* but certainly not out of balance.  His health is low enough for a 3* that you could still beat him in many ways using the 3* tier.
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    “Oh look I can gain purple and red AP. And my other characters can use that while I only keep my 3* Gambit at 0/0/5. Oh yes I’ll do that, I’ll take advantage of the character while it remains that way. The Developers didn’t really think this one through. Oh yes it’s very (unfair) of me but it’s their fault, idc about the other who use 3* Gambit fairly, (equality).” 
    Hence why Gambit was changed after all. Where’s your logic?
    I'm going to front load this TLDR :
    He's available to everyone, there's an equivalent amount of drawbacks and the scope is narrow

    - i am spending 1/3 of my team as a lump that sits there and generates mana. that lump has very low health. 
    - I have to team him with someone whom usually has a hard to trigger nuke. or a remarkably cheap stun(well...really just spidergwen). so now 2/3 of my team are used up on what is basically a novelty.
     Think of him as a testing tool: a battery that you can put in and test out expensive or hard to wield powersets. He was useful for me to pair him with incomplete characters that had an interesting mechanic or I wanted to play around with triggers and affecting the board state to be silly.
    Really take stock and quantify which powers you would want him to charge: whales, reality crush, you can leave the red on the board for moonstone, cyc/torch can spam slightly more often, hulks benefitted, blade certainly but you would just pair him with regular gambit, even with doom you have to wait forever to TKO one mob. none of these are totally OP(gwen/thing see below). Qualify why using gammbatt would be better than the previous status quo for using those characters. Gambatt is not as good as IM40, switch gives match 5's& stuns and a green active, etc- you give up a lot to use gambatt. 
    -Your last teammate can either have 3 dif colors or your going void. How many completely complementary characters can properly synchronize? not that many. It can really turn your teams into one trick ponies..
    - The gwen,/thing combo is winfinitepowerful. but how else is gwen useful? Thing was (sadly) underutilized, together they are pretty niche. But your talking about a combo that can only be used by 4/5* players that have been around long enough to have them both champed. So its really a false equivalency to the 3* tier which is where he should be judged at. plus you can skip the match in PvP or create a similiarly niche takedown team but again a luxury limited to the top end of players.
    - He's a 3* so his covers are not particularly hard to come by. there is no A/B distribution model that says that Elite tokens give me better odds of pulling a Gambit black than you.
    - it wasn't some inheritance or gift from the admins; I paid: 1,000HP for the roster slot, the loss of champ rewards from 168-172 are: 2500 iso and 50HP. I feel like I was lucky in that it took me about a month.  Anyone can buy a roster slot scoop up some covers and.... yeah, that's all you have to do. you too can have a gambatt. Pretty low t-threshold. There is no trick or exploit. 
    -super boring playstyle. it's slow and predictable.
    People act like gambatt was some instant win code that would give you 3xmatchdam, 4 inches on your vert jump and free cp. He was totally usable in SOME situations but mostly a gimmick. Having him didn't give a profound advantage that shifted the axis of placement awards or aided clear times in PvE. Bring back #* Gambit as powerful as he ever was. and keep making really strong releases to keep up.


  • 0_efx_0
    0_efx_0 Posts: 236 Tile Toppler
    Purplemur, just curious, did you know that when using 3* Gambit one could use other character abilities that had red and purple; even though Stacked Deck said other characters could not fire red and purple abilities? 

    Only asking because you failed to mention it in the book you just wrote right above.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    purplemur said:

    The gwen,/thing combo is winfinitepowerful.

    ...

    People act like gambatt was some instant win code 

    Ummm... which is it?

    “You can skip it”, and “you can make your own” are pretty weak excuses for the return of Gambat. 

    I will never call people who used Gambat (I never did) cheaters. But it’s obviously not how the developers intended him to be used and he was changed accordingly. 

    Unfortunatley instead of giving him the obvious fix the 5* got and tying the power restriction to his black, we got him gutted straight to the bottom tier of the 3* pool. 

    If if I have to choose between Gambat and Guttedbit, I’ll take the latter and let him rot on my bench. 

    Shame the developers couldn’t do the easy fix, because non-exploited Gambit was pretty awesome prenerf.
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    edited February 2018
    daredevil: yes in one particular case it could be used to create a team that was "winfinite". MOST, a vast majority, of the player base does not have access to this particular combo. 3* players were not fighting it in PvP scl5. yes i went against it, yes i totally lost. so I skipped it from then on.  I skip Grocket/Medusa teams because of healthpack loss does that mean they should be nerfed so I don't have to?  take out Spidergwen and is Gambatt/Thing/whomever instant win? people act like you could add him to any team and he just wins it for the player. not true."you can make your own" was to point out the fairness. 
    0efx0:  troll so hard! attack the mods, call players names, and then  like "where's your logic". So I replied. and then you move the goalposts, flamebait and fein/accuse ignorance about the underlying basic precept that was being discussed. Gambatt being different than Gambit. That "book" (I gave you the TLDR so don't front) was to explain the practical downsides of the overhyped Gambatt. an attempt at dialogue not a set-up for Al Jaffee's Snappy Answers to Stupid Posts.

    I'm sure there are holes in my reasoning, exceptions, qualifiers and whatnot. but if you ignore everything I say, even though you understand the bulk and sharpshooter two lines that were not connected thats a logical fallacy. tu quoque, it's also like saying your ugly so I don't have to listen to you. I am ugly and you don't have to listen to me but that's not the causation.
    outside of gambatt/thing/gwen where is the game break? are we just going to go back to the one outlying exception to disprove the entire idea? Where is the correlation between me owning a gambatt and your sense of loss? Nothing got taken away from you. T5 PvE isn't suddenly going to the player that grinds with gambatt.
    Honestly, I barely used gambatt, you always had to scroll back down to the 70's to select him, He was not as dynamic as well paired active powers, I don't miss him but I don't regret trying it out. it was a neat gimmick. He is not the boogeyman: finish the prologue or baba yaga Gambatt will get you!!!.

    The original point is bring back 3*Gambit. Don't hold up gambatt as an example of how he was broken and the reason why that garbage nerf was handed down. He was nerfed cuz of hysteria. 

    ***EDIT:
    It wasn't moving the goalposts, and cherry-picking not sharpshooting. 
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    edited February 2018
    Look,I don't want hard feelings or some run-on increasingly nasty back and forth. 
    I agree: we need to un-nerf 3* Gambit, because I don't think there was anything wrong with him. I am just that Lunatic Fringe that thinks we don't need ANY nerf on his powerset because I think something like a gambatt/goon is fine if players want to. Freedom of choice.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    purplemur said:
    daredevil: yes in one particular case it could be used to create a team that was "winfinite". MOST, a vast majority, of the player base does not have access to this particular combo. 3* players were not fighting it in PvP scl5. yes i went against it,, yes i totally lost. so I skipped it from then on.  I skip Grocket/medusa teams because of healthpack loss does that mean they should be nerfed so I don't have to?  take out spidergwen and is gambatt/thing/whomever instant win? people act like you could add him to any team and he just wins it for the player. not true.
    "you can make your own" was to point out the fairness. 
    0efx0:  troll so hard! attack the mods, call players names, and then you were like where's your logic. So I replied. and then you move the goalposts, flamebait and fein/accuse ignorance about the underlying basic precept that was being discussed. Gambatt being different than gambit. That "book"(i gave you the tldr so don't front) was to explain the practical downsides of the overhyped gambatt. an attempt at dialogue not a set-up for Al Jaffee's snappy answers to stupid posts.

    I'm sure there are holes in my reasoning, exceptions, qualifiers and whatnot. but if you ignore everything I say, even though you understand the bulk and sharpshooter two lines that were not connected thats a logical fallacy. tu quoque, it's also like saying your ugly so I don't have to listen to you. I am ugly and you don't have to listen to me but that's not the causation.
    outside of gambatt/thing/gwen where is the game break? are we just going to go back to the one outlying exception to disprove the entire idea? Where is the correlation between me owning a gambatt and your sense of loss? Nothing got taken away from you. T5 PvE isn't suddenly going to the player that grinds with gambatt.
    Honestly, I barely used gambatt, you always had to scroll back down to the 70's to select him, He was not as dynamic as well paired active powers, I don't miss him but I don't regret trying it out. it was a neat gimmick. He is not the boogeyman: finish the prologue or baba yaga gambatt will get you!!!.

    The original point is bring back 3*gambit. Don't hold up gambatt as an example of how he was broken and the reason why that garbage nerf was handed down. He was nerfed cuz of hysteria. 

    Few things.

    1. You say it’s fair because everyone has access to Gambit, but then go on to say that most players don’t have access to the broken combo. So is it fair because everyone has access or unfair because few do?

    2. You yourself skip the broken combo because it is pretty much unbeatable and don’t see that as a problem? So in sim I could just climb and climb and when I’m done, throw that team up and get skipped again and again, and you don’t see that as a problem either? You also don’t think the person who can’t field or beat that team loses out at all?

    3. You say that one team is an outlier and dismiss it as a minor part of the argument. The fact is the game has always nerfed true winfinite characters (Prof/Switch/BW isn’t true winfinite because they need awhile to get going and aren’t fullproof on defense). Heck they nerfed 2* Mags and Mystique. Not exactly powerhouses but part of winfinite builds. 

    4. You choosing to skip Grocket because of packs is not the same as you choosing to skip a match because you can’t win. Not even close to the same thing. 

    5. On any boost week where there’s a Purple or Red user, Gambat was a must in PVP for fast clears because the reality is no one can fuel faster. And sure everyone could just build there own to create equity, but It still creates a “must play” experience. 

    6.  Finally, the developers never intended for people to only play him at 5 covers as a battery for others.  It was an oversight in the character design.  Above all else this is the bottom line. More than the faster clears or broken combo with Gwen/Thing, it really boils down to this is not what the developers intended for the character and they “fixed” it. Obviously they over-corrected, and “fixed” things that weren’t broken, but they still did so because the way people played him was not what they intended for the character. 

Categories