Cover swaps: What am I missing?

JarvisJackrabbit

1) Customer service will swap extra covers if they are drawn from latest legends but not from classics or new character releases.

2) D3, generally speaking, seems to want to deter hoarding of CP and have taken several measures recently to do so.

These two things don't jive with one another. The current system basically ensures players will have to hoard thousands of CP in an effort to overcome RNG and pay an extra 5 CP per pull over classics for the insurance policy of cover swaps.

I have 15 champed 4*s at his point and my highest 5*s are Thanos at 4/0/3 and BB at 1/1/4. There will be covers wasted for them. I'll get my 5th black Thanos cover from G4mora shortly. Most of the covers I have for those two characters were pulled when they were in latest, but there's almost certainly no way I'd get a cover swap for one of those covers (from latest) for a 6th (or 100th) unusable cover drawn from classics.

It would be nice if cover swaps could be made for dupe covers from classics with an additional charge of 5 or 10 CP up to the number of those covers on a player's roster that were actually drawn from latest.

What other factors are at play here that I haven't considered? I feel as though it is worth it to continue pulling from classics while building a broader team of 4*, but wasted 5*s are going to sting.

*edited to add publisher's name

Daiches

Ehm.. they actually do jive well together if you remember the point is to make money. 

JarvisJackrabbit

Well, that's one perspective. I understand that as a sub-whale paying customer, my perspective of "Don't hoard, except please hoard" is colored by that, which makes it less of a concern to the product's makers. Should this just be chalked up the whales bankrolling FTP games, or is there some actual logical incongruity to work through here?

JHawkInc

Oh this one is easy.

Point 2 is about the free to play model. The player needs to always be scrounging for just a little more in terms of resources, so at any given time you might pull a cover that would go to waste, and need another cover for that character and/or some ISO to champ that character. Balance it right, keep a player on the edge of spending as often as you can, odds of them spending goes up. If the player can meaningfully hoard resources, the larger that hoard gets, the more complacent the player will get, and thus the less likely to spend. 

Point 1 is because of 5* availability. You can drop $5k on a new character, all in buy clubs, that's 140CP per $100, 7000 total CP, at 25 CP per pull you get 280 pulls, and at 5% odds of the new character per pull, that'd net you a solid 14 covers. Enough to champ, right? Ooo, sorry, you got yours to 5/5/1, and then your 12th, 13th, and 14th covers were of the first two powers. Now you have an 11 cover 5*, three 5* covers going to waste, and no reasonable way to quickly acquire the last two you need, and you just spent FIVE GRAND on this game. I bet anyone willing to spend that much in the first place wouldn't be happy. I wouldn't.

Cover swaps are pretty obviously meant to account for the fact that 5* odds make whaling a little ridiculous. They're meant as a band-aid to appease the people spending that much or more every release, so they're happy with their purchase and keep spending. Everyone gets access to them because you'd have a mess of a PR issue if only whales got cover swaps. They're limited to Latest tokens as a combination of supporting Point 2, and because (to a degree) whales are only buying Latest anyways (because they already have the classic characters, or aren't chasing them because a moving meta-game means they don't have to).

JarvisJackrabbit

Thanks for the great insights this far. I'm coming to MPQ from the top alliance in Gameloft's Spider-Man Unlimited, a game where players were able to transcend the pay-to-win model with sufficient skill and grinding to a point. The chances of catching up without whaling to reach competition atop daily and event leaderboards was unlikely, however, without having downloaded the game near its release date.

I had dozens of interactions with that publisher's Customer Care department (email and phone) and some access to the development team, so I understand the pressure exerted on the devs by the publisher's bottom line.

Although unlikely, when I do have my first 6th 5* cover, I still plan on attempting to file a ticket and seeing how far I get with a little creative framing of the situation.

Daiches

JarvisJackrabbit said:

Thanks for the great insights this far. I'm coming to MPQ from the top alliance in Gameloft's Spider-Man Unlimited, a game where players were able to transcend the pay-to-win model with sufficient skill and grinding to a point. The chances of catching up without whaling to reach competition atop daily and event leaderboards was unlikely, however, without having downloaded the game near its release date.



- Nice humble brag, but the last part is possible here. It just takes hoarding.

I had dozens of interactions with that publisher's Customer Care department (email and phone) and some access to the development team, so I understand the pressure exerted on the devs by the publisher's bottom line.

- This is wildly different from this game. Even the whaliest of whales barely have contact capabilities to the devs. Is the developer and the publisher the same in that game? Because the split here is one of the reasons complaints fall on deaf ears.

Although unlikely, when I do have my first 6th 5* cover, I still plan on attempting to file a ticket and seeing how far I get with a little creative framing of the situation.

- Rules are set. There's always the one time exception, which is hard to get and not something you want to waste readily.

bluewolf

As pointed out already, this policy is not meant to be well known or widely used, really.  But it addresses the issue of streak breaking (or the lack thereof) in a roundabout way.  Perhaps some day they will implement a swap in game.

If you want to move to 5* play, pulling Latest is really the only way to do it predictably, and take advantage of the swaps.

HoundofShadow

In life, you can't get everything your way. There has to be a balance somewhere. If you can get what you want easily, you lose interest of it quickly. Agree?

Would you elaborate on the measures that D3 have taken to deter players from hoarding CP? 

Currently, there are between 3 to 7 ways to get a 5*:

1) Latest Legends 
2) Classic Legends
3) Heroes for Hire
4) Covers from 4* (limited)
5) 720 CP (provided that you have a cover of that character
6) Bonus heroes
7) Special event tokens like Engines of Vengeance

I think that's a lot of options. The problem is getting the cover that you want. 

I think adding extra 5 to 10 cp is too low, given that 720CP is needed to buy the cover of your choice, provided that you have one of each colour. If a swap for the cover gained from Classic Tokens is made, there should be a cap.

For example, one of your 5* is at 5/0/5, and you got an unuseable cover from Classic Tokens. You could make a swap at half the premium of 720CP, which is 360CP, and you could do it only once. Then, your character would be at 5/1/5. Subsequently, if you were to get another unuseable cover for that same character again, then you have to make a choice from the 7 options above or whatever options are available. 

broll

If cover swaps didn't exist hoarding would be even more required than it is.  In order to not throw away 5* covers you'd want to pull them in mass when you have enough ISO to champ any that hit 13+ in 14 days.  Alternatively once some got 5 in any one color for a 5 they might stop pulling all together until that one left latest.  If the odds of a rare 5* going to waste are 1 in 9, those are some pretty bad odds and it goes up by close to 10% each color at 5.

bluewolf

@HoundofShadow  In terms of ways that the developers discourage hoarding, the main argument probably is that the 5E node makes sure that you need to have the Latest 5's in order to compete for placement in the majority of events.  I would also look at the HfH 5* offerings to consider that they want to have people use CP for covers they need/want vs saving for a large pull down the line.  Lastly, the 4* feeder program means that it can be beneficial for players to try to get certain 4's to a high level in order to get the 5* cover rewards, and the best way to move your 4's up is with CP, obviously.

I don't know what, if any, mechanism is being considered for making swaps an actual thing for players in game, but considering that currently it is resource-positive (you sell the cover for 2000 iso and get a cover you need), then anything like a 360CP cost would be met with massive protests considering how widespread the requests are at this point.  I think a HP cost would be accepted by most players in exchange for eliminating the wait time that is involved.  Anyway, time will tell if anything is done, but they always say the practice can be discontinued; that said, its widespread awareness makes it very hard now to do away with it without upsetting the playerbase.

bluewolf

aesthetocyst said:

bluewolf said:

 I think a HP cost would be accepted by most players in exchange for eliminating the wait time that is involved.  Anyway, time will tell if anything is done, but they always say the practice can be discontinued; that said, its widespread awareness makes it very hard now to do away with it without upsetting the playerbase.

If you are able to respond to CS in a timely manner, they are completing swaps in 1-2 days. It's a 2-stage process, in my recent experience they get back to you by the end of the business day, or next business day if you replay after hours.

bluewolf said:

 I think a HP cost would be accepted by most players in exchange for eliminating the wait time that is involved.  Anyway, time will tell if anything is done, but they always say the practice can be discontinued; that said, its widespread awareness makes it very hard now to do away with it without upsetting the playerbase.

Again, based on my recent experience, they have dropped any verbiage implying potential change. Swaps have become very, very routine.

Which could be a bad thing, if they do decide to plug the hole, as they are currently giving the impression this is just the way things are and no change is anticipated.

*looks at email from swap done on Friday. Sees no verbiage about a policy that may end. Stands corrected and scratches head.*

Daredevil217

“We are sorry to hear that you pulled another duplicate comic cover, but we would like to inform you that we're currently running a limited time service to allow players to exchange their duplicate unusable 5-star Comic Covers for ones that they can use for characters in their roster.”

To me, limited time offer implies temporary. 

bluewolf

The email I received last Friday did not include the text you copied or anything similar.  Just we confirmed the cover, please sell it, and respond to this email.

broll

bluewolf said:

aesthetocyst said:

bluewolf said:

 I think a HP cost would be accepted by most players in exchange for eliminating the wait time that is involved.  Anyway, time will tell if anything is done, but they always say the practice can be discontinued; that said, its widespread awareness makes it very hard now to do away with it without upsetting the playerbase.

If you are able to respond to CS in a timely manner, they are completing swaps in 1-2 days. It's a 2-stage process, in my recent experience they get back to you by the end of the business day, or next business day if you replay after hours.

bluewolf said:

 I think a HP cost would be accepted by most players in exchange for eliminating the wait time that is involved.  Anyway, time will tell if anything is done, but they always say the practice can be discontinued; that said, its widespread awareness makes it very hard now to do away with it without upsetting the playerbase.

Again, based on my recent experience, they have dropped any verbiage implying potential change. Swaps have become very, very routine.

Which could be a bad thing, if they do decide to plug the hole, as they are currently giving the impression this is just the way things are and no change is anticipated.

*looks at email from swap done on Friday. Sees no verbiage about a policy that may end. Stands corrected and scratches head.*

I've only used this service twice.  I looked back at the first one (November 2017) and it listed it as temporary.  However, the one from two weeks ago did not. Interesting.

Daredevil217

The one I quoted was from my first and only swap ever and it was this month. 

HoundofShadow

@ bluewolf

If HP were used instead, wouldn't it be sky high?

Currently, a 4* cover cost 3600 in HfH. If it's available for 5*, it could be 7200 or 10800 HP. I'm not sure how many HP seasoned players have. I suppose they would have HP in the range of 6 figures. 

Currently, if you have any colour of a cover, you can buy another one of the same colour using CP @ this amount:
3* cover = 20CP
4* = 120 CP
5* = 720CP

The increment is 6 times.

In HfH:
5* Latest = 500CP
5* Classic = 250CP
4* = 3600 HP

Th difference between Classic and Latest is 250CP or two times. I would expect the difference between 4* and 5* using HP (if they implement it) to be at least 3 to 4 times, unless they overhaul the whole thing in HfH. 

Dogface

If they implement HP for 5*, then whales are gonna whale (even more). Don't think the devs want such a great divide between players.

bluewolf

I don’t think they will have 5* cover buys, for the record.  I was saying that an HP cost for a swap could be something I see being accepted and wouldn’t break the game - as long as it was not exorbitant. A CP cost could be implemented for Classics as well, but pricing gets a little tricky.  Consider that the dilution issue makes pulling another cover of the same 5* character pretty unlikely - 1/120 - and getting the right color is another layer of randomness.  So if you said it was 250cp for a swap, in a way, that is fair pricing, but pretty steep.  If they had 125 for a swap, it starts to be more fair and something that people might have on hand.  To me, the player, it seems more unfair to get the wrong color for the right character than simply getting the wrong character.  So it would be nice for the developers to recognize that with their pricing. 

This is may all likely be moot if the swap process is locked in for Latest, and they consider it a service for the premium you pay in higher CP costs.  Classics may never have a swap service.

HoundofShadow

Sorry for the misunderstanding. In HfH, a Classic 5* cost 250cp. Correct me if I'm wrong. I heard that sometimes in HfH, they will pop up that one cover that you need to champed the 5*. However, there's seems to be mixed results. But I think the main focus would be getting unuseable covers for 5* Classic and you have less than 12 covers. 

I forgot to factor in the unuseable cover as well. I'm not sure if 125 CP is low. It definitely has to be at least 120CP and less than 250CP. The thing is if it's set at 125CP, a new issue might occur. There would be bound to have players mentioning that 4* cost 120cp to buy and 5* cost 125cp for a swap. If 120cp is the premium for the swap of the 5* classic, the cost of 4* @ 120cp  has to be lowered as well? There's a probability of 1:7  of getting 5* classic, but of course  there has to be a significant number of pulls to make it close to the figure (300?). 

Probably a minimum of 140CP and not more than 200CP would be good? You gained 2000iso + cover colour of your choice in exchange for that range of CP.  I'm commenting based on the data that is available for everyone.

The other thing could be excessive workload for the staff and you have to wait longer than usual for other requests. I expect a swap for unuseable Classic will generate even more requests than Latest and the waiting time would be longer. 

Randomness has never been fair to everyone. Sometimes you get a streak of good luck, and sometimes you don't.

Quebbster

HoundofShadow said:

Sorry for the misunderstanding. In HfH, a Classic 5* cost 250cp. Correct me if I'm wrong. I heard that sometimes in HfH, they will pop up that one cover that you need to champed the 5*. However, there's seems to be mixed results. But I think the main focus would be getting unuseable covers for 5* Classic and you have less than 12 covers. 

As far as I know, the special Heroes For Hire offers are only for fourstar covers. At least I have never Heard about a fivestar offer...

bluewolf

It’s true that there isn’t a HfH “save my cover” trigger for 5* covers.  And while it’s fun to speculate, my thinking for a swap done on Classics for a fee would be that it’s something the player could accomplish without CS; aka in game.  The theory in general for why swaps aren’t done for Classics is that it would create more work, since many players (maybe most) pull Classics over Latest, especially while building their 4* rosters.