Koth? Seriously? Part 2!

RhysMarkov

First off, I came back because I heard there were new devs, and I figured I hang out to see what they ended up doing with the game... also, full disclosure, I figured there will eventually be a buch of free stuff because of all the things haha...

That being said, this isn't so much a gripe against Koth (already discussed it and read all the posts about him)... more just general speculation in the form of:  

I wonder if there's a metric that exists that shows how many force quits occur because of him vs. any other planeswalker? Honestly, I'm 50/50 when I run into him in TG, and even in the matches I do play against him, it's again 50/50 on whether I'll complete them or just force quit because, well, Koth.

Gormhaus

It depends on if you have a good koth counter. I like to play creatureless ob against koth in Tg.

ManiiNames

I beat Koth pretty regularly,  he has no flex, it’s either BOOM or nothing.  If you can stop / kill the BOOM then smooth sailing.

RhysMarkov

Don't get me wrong, I also beat Koth. As long as I build specifically for him. But that's part of the issue with him. No other planeswalker (that I know of right now, anyways) requires the effort and/or preparation in order to properly combat them. Koth, however, just dropped two consecutive Skysovereigns on me during FIRF (enraged, no less lol) and that was all she wrote.

Again, this has already been discussed and debated into the ground. On one side you have the people who I like to call "Koth apologists" who insist that he's fine the way he is, and his abilities are perfectly reasonable. These are also the people that I'm pretty sure like to run "Red Deck Wins" decks in paper Magic lol...  On the other, you have the folks who can't stand Koth because of the unbalanced (compared to other PWs) shenanigans he can get into when the gems fall just right.

Personally, I've had the crystals to get him just about everytime he's been in the Vault and I refuse to get him. 

The point of it is that I consider a match vs. Koth a waste of my time. Either a) He's gonna ramp faster because of his red mana gain and drop cards whose costs/power weren't calculated with him in mind, thereby crushing my face faster than I can type this response or b) I'm gonna have to spend more effort to beat him than I would on a boss like Bolas, which shouldn't be the case.

So that's why I was just idly wondering what the number of force quits to koth vs. any other planeswalker would look like. Is it an order of magnitude difference, or something less extreme?

Kinesia

My frustration with him is more...
i tried making a new Chandra 1 deck and it worked and was great but I realised it would automatically just be better with Koth.
We ended up recommending a Newbie to not even bother with Chandra 1 right now, just start with Koth. And I didn't want to say that but couldn't really argue with it...

This is not a good situation.

RhysMarkov

If there's any one thing I would hope the new devs do it would be that they overhaul the original PWs... the only one i still use regularly is Nissa1, mainly because I built my one solid antiKoth deck with her. I'd really like to use Jace1 and Lili1 again, but their mana gains are atrocious currently.

Gilesclone

I never play Koth. I got one a month ago and he's still level 1.  But he's just not all that.  I run into him several times a week in TG and as long as I have a decent deck I don't sweat it.  He doesn't beat me as often as Lilliana 1.  Yes he gets lucky sometimes, but more often I just beat the tinykitty out of him and he never gets going. 

RhysMarkov

Haha <shrug> it's true, a well-crafted and thought out deck should have solutions for everything, including Koth. Same applies in paper Magic. But when you're gaining a minimum of 9 mana on a red match, you can throw slop on the figurative table and still come out looking like a pro.

Gilesclone

Btw, if you like RDW in paper, don't get Koth, get Nahiri. Koth is for the big monsters.

Dropspot

I have koth at 50. And find him so limited. I never use him. Playing against him is so easy. You just need to keep him away of red matches and you will win.

RhysMarkov

Not a big fan of RDW in general, as it makes games too fast. I prefer longer games that are more like chess and less like "i just punched you in the face and knocked you on your ****." Lol

RhysMarkov

As far as keeping Koth away from getting those red matches, that's what my Nissa 1 is built for. Ulvenwald Hydra, Oblivion Sower and Channeler Initiate, then a bunch of removal, search and mana conversion.

majincob

I guess I am a Koth "apologist" , although I haven't PVPed  with him since Nahiri came out.

I also can't remember the last time I lost to him.

khurram

I can't remember the last time I lost to him either. People love to over react.

bk1234

I also can't remember the last time I lost to him -- I also can't remember the last time I played with him. Might spin an aggro deck in TG for the next couple days -- just for fun. 

RhysMarkov

Koth is a thing, and will continue to be a thing. I just wouldn't mind seeing the hypothetical amount of times people have just conceded matches to him vs. the other PWs.

My solution to him is to play one particular deck, or not play him at all, if it can be helped, because I don't win consistently enough against him to trivialize his presence.

Ohboy

Out of curiosity, what do you do to build against him, and why can't it be incorporated in all your decks? 

bk1234

@RhysMarkov -- before I had a big enough collection to be able to build decks that could take on almost anything, I would sideboard for Koth and Nahiri -- is there a reason you can't do that?

Stormcrow

Personally I find Koth to be a useful benchmark for my Training Grounds decks, because if the deck I built isn't fast enough to kill the average Koth before they kill me, then it's definitely not fast enough for me not to get impatient and/or bored with the game while playing against anything with "boss health" like Nicol Bolas & co.

Szamsziel

The same discussion again and again. There is one catch with Koth -- before fight when you are against him you can easily prepare. It's not a paper mtg where you are limited to your sideboard. You can rebuild entire deck. It's strategy is pretty straightforward. Yes, he can generate ton of mana... But it's nothing compared to green pw ramps. (I can generate 300+ mana each turn on Kiora). In each color there are counters to Koth strategy.
But when I'm facing in example Kiora - I cannot predict what I'll be facing - easy cycle? support based? Hiper aggressive ramp? Control and hexproof gaea? 
I use Koth. - For specific nodes in pve. In one node for firf (he can have good control over his life). But for tg I use faster decks. 
Tl,Dr: koth is good pw but not overpowered. There are counters to his strategy. Do not need adjustments.

shteev

Koth is a high variance PW.. he can win hard or he can lose hard. I don't play him because the chance of losing hard is too high for me. If I want speed, I tend to use Nahiri, who is lower variance.

I respect him when I play against him, and he's one of the PWs that beats me the most.. er... which, I hasten to add, isn't very often at all, because I am L337Z()R!!!!one!!!

Losing to a big Koth cascade certainly doesn't happen as often as (and isn't nearly as annoying as) losing a narrow objective to a big cascade... or creatureless deck...