Do I champ a 5* if I'm in the 4* transition?

bycbyc Age Unconfirmed Posts: 297 Mover and Shaker
As an experienced vet now, I have good ideas or what to do and what not to do.  However, 5* land is foreign to me, and I would appreciate advice on it.

My roster is in my signature.  It's updated enough for this questions' purpose.  I think the only major difference is that I have 3-4 more 4* champions than in my current signature.

I'm planning to buy Cosmic Legendary tokens to try and land my 13th Thanos cover.  IF I get it, should I spend the isos to champion him?  It would raise my scaling up a lot and probably ruin my PvP.  I learned a while ago not to level up characters unless they are useful or at 13 covers.  My natural instinct of hoarding and saving resources have helped in this regard.  I never leveled up any of my 5*s until Thanos, where I went power mad for a few hours and thought it was the greatest thing ever just dominating lesser teams with a 300+ Thanos.  I never bothered leveling my Old Man Logan pre-nerf with 6 covers (I just never felt the need or desire to).  I did notice my scaling went up, but it didn't really bother me.

I play all events.  I generally only go for 575 in PvP because I don't really want to devote the time to get to 900.  It seems like I'm severely underrating my roster by not going for 900 more consistently.

I've read lots of stories where it seems like people don't really enjoy playing at the 5* environment without multiple 5* champions.  I'm not even close to having multiple 5* champions, only Thanos.  It seems like to me I shouldn't champ him and ruin my game and be forced to sell Thanos to have a fun PvP scaling.
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Comments

  • BlackBoltRocksBlackBoltRocks Posts: 2,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    From what I've read, having just one 5* champ won't affect your PvP MMR to an unmanageable extent. PvE isnt a problem because of SCL-based scaling; in fact, having one or more champed 5* will help you out greatly. I myself am seriously contemplating using the store to get Silver Surfer as my first 5* champ, along with my 31 4* champions.

    Some helpful threads I bookmarked:

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/66846/should-i-go-ahead-and-get-my-first-5-champ#latest

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/65732/experiences-with-and-advice-on-transitioning-to-the-5-tier#latest
  • CT1888CT1888 Posts: 1,105 Chairperson of the Boards
    With Thanos champed, pve will become even easier - CL7 can be done on autopilot for example.
    When I champed Thanos, pvp mmr took a jump, but one that was easily manageable, as I was predominantly facing single champed 5* + boosted champed 4*, twin under levelled 5*s or similar. With a good boosted 4*, you will be able to dismantle many of these teams. It was a very enjoyable phase of the game for me.
    Once you champ a second, it jumps again to where you see twin champed 5*s predominantly.
  • bycbyc Age Unconfirmed Posts: 297 Mover and Shaker
    Got my black, and now Thanos is 13/13.  I'm going to hold off for the time being.

    I do have another question that I think I know the answer of.

    I assume the way the scaling works is on your level?  So if I level Thanos to 450, I might as well champion?
  • Dragon_NexusDragon_Nexus Posts: 3,689 Chairperson of the Boards
    I've just started wondering the same thing.
    I opened a bunch of Gambit legendaries hoping for a Gambit cover (which I eventually got), but I was lucky(?) enough to get five OML covers in a row.

    So one of my slowest building 5*s in my roster went from 8 to 13 in one go. He's 4/5/4 and I don't know whether to make the effort to champ him or not. I don't want to screw things up forever and ever, especially since he's well out of the meta at this point.
  • kennn712kennn712 Posts: 67 Match Maker
    In the sames boat as @Dragon_Nexus. Is OML a good first 5* post-nerf?
  • BlackBoltRocksBlackBoltRocks Posts: 2,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    @Dragon_Nexus @kennn712 I made Silver Surfer my first 5* champ back on Monday (lv451). My next highest-levelled character is Coulson at lv287.

    PvE has become more of a breeze. I'm sticking to SCL8 for the time being, so Surfer has been downing opponents in the later nodes in 3 or 4 match-3s, especially from the third clear onwards. OML has higher match damage than Surfer, so your PvE clear time should drop significantly.

    For PvP, MMR has changed as you would expect, but it's nothing unmanageable. I champed Surfer before I entered the Rogue PvP; when I did, my opponents consisted mainly of three categories:

    1) One champed 5* (usually no higher than lv454), the loaner, and a high-levelled 4* in the 300s
    2) the loaner, and two lv300-400 5*. Or one champed 5* (again, no higher than 454) and a 300+ 5*
    3) the loaner, and two very high 4* (lv 340+ unboosted)

    All of which effectively means I'm forced to use Surfer for every match, but as mentioned, it's nothing unmanageable. Partly because Surfer can heal, so that saves health packs.

    Likewise for OML: since he can true heal, he'll be saving you a considerable amount of health packs, despite his nerf. In my personal opinion he's a very solid choice for your first 5* champ. I'd say go for it, especially since one single 5* champ isn't exactly game-breaking in terms of PvP MMR. If your 4* champs are up to scratch (in the high 280s onwards, like Dragon Nexus'), go right ahead. And in terms of PvE, just team him up with 3* Strange to absolutely destroy all goons.

    In response to @Dragon_Nexus's comment about screwing things up, that only happens when you have a second 5* champ. Once you do that, PvP will consist mainly of the loaner and two 5* champs. So make sure your second 5* champ is a top-tier one, like Thanos, Black Bolt, and maybe even Peter Parker. Bolt in particular goes well with OML - okay, Bolt goes well with the vast majority of characters - his Energy Channeling can double-dip on OML's strikes. That's partly why I went ahead and champed Surfer: my Thanos is at 3/5/5, so I can champ him anytime I get 574k iso. And probably say goodbye to all my health packs in 10 minutes in the process.

    Of course, for many of us, our 5* champ order will be determined by how the covers fall. For @Dragon_Nexus, I see your Phoenix is at 3/4/5, based on your current roster in your link. You might want to try pulling more tokens from the Gambit store to covermax Phoenix (and BH her of course). OML-Phoenix is still a scary combo in PvP, especially with Phoenix's cascades benefitting from OML's strikes. You can try teaming them up with your Cyclops at 3/5/5. For @kennn712 I'm not sure about your roster, so ymmv; still, having OML as your sole 5* champ will carry you a long way until you have a good second 5* ready to be champed.
  • kennn712kennn712 Posts: 67 Match Maker
    edited October 2017
    @BlackBoltRocks wow thank you so much for the detailed response. I have about 35 4* champs and the highest is Carol at about 315. The rest are lingering around 280-290. It has definitely got me thinking! As of right now, my other notable 5* characters are a 5/2/5 5trange and 5/5/1 Bolt (and possibly 3/3/3 HE). Considering how close my Bolt is to 13 (5/5/1 though :neutral:), I was actually thinking of saving 1440 CP and BH'ing Bolt. Anything over 1440 CP goes towards classic tokens and if I manage to pull a BH unusable or unusable in general, I can use CP and champ.

    Still unsure on spending 1440 CP on Bolt though! 
  • BlackBoltRocksBlackBoltRocks Posts: 2,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    @kennn712 Hmm. Black Bolt is one of my favourite characters (as you can probably guess heh)...I'd be very tempted to save up 1440CP, especially with two powers at 5 covers. If there is one character 1440CP would be worth spending on, I daresay it's Bolt. Not sure if he'll be a featured 5* in the future though i.e. with a 5% chance along with two other 5*.

    As for Strange, I suspect that he might be one of those featured 5* along with Thor and Bruce Banner when Thor is released for his movie. This is just my feeling though, so don't take my word for it! If that's the case, save your CP for that particular vault. Assuming CS allows swaps, you should be able to covermax Strange. Again, this is all conjecture though!

    The general consensus is to champ three 5* at once if you want to move into 5* land. OML, 5trange, and Bolt are a very potent trio to make the transition; an added bonus is that they have perfect rainbow coverage. If all my assumptions are correct, you can save up 1440CP for Bolt, any other CP (based on the 5% average, that should be around another 500) for Strange, and 1.722 million iso to champ all three of them simultaneously. Or you can champ OML first, then save iso for both Strange and Bolt when they're covermaxed. It's up to you :)

    If I'm totally wrong about Strange, an OML-Bolt duo is still quite scary, and those two can easily carry you in both PvE and PvP.
  • kennn712kennn712 Posts: 67 Match Maker
    edited October 2017
    @BlackBoltRocks yes I can see you're a fan. Want to know how I know?  :p

    I'm really starting to think 1440 CP for Bolt and then champ him as first for now. Then continue work on my other 5* (or even champ OML). Not too fussed about going 3 5* champs right away. The dive right into the deep end might get a bit dull to me after a while if all I'm using is Bolt/OML every fight.

    On the Thor/Strange/Banner store guess, I think it's a good bet. But at the moment I've heard they only swap Gambit in the OML/PHX/Gambit store. So even if I did manage to pull a 5trange, it might be unusable  :( also, my Banner is at 4/4/5 but as above... I did say notable 5* so I didn't bother mentioning him :D :D
  • Dragon_NexusDragon_Nexus Posts: 3,689 Chairperson of the Boards
    @BlackBoltRocksThanks very much for the advice, it paid off.
    Opened a few more Mes Amis tokens and got a Pheonix Green to get her at 4/4/5, so now she's maxed too. How fortuitous.

    Of course in the process of that I got a Vulture cover so I gotta champ him next.

    My other fear is...2 weeks is enough time to champ a 4* if I suddenly get a cover for them I'm not necessarily expecting, but it is absolutely not enough time to get a 5* from 255 to champ. So I might actually have to start pouring some ISO into them to get them part of the way there.

    I'm trying to recall the time I was in the same position with a load of newly champed 3*s and a few 4*s at 13 covers, worrying about taking the next step forward. I recall feeling the same way...getting 4*s would mean I'd suddenly be in the 4* club and unable to compete because there'd be all these boosted 4*s and there's me with my unboosted Thor waiting for my participation trophy.

    But I'm heading towards the point where I've champed darn near all the 4*s, the only 4* I have unchamped who's outside of the 3x odds is Mr Fantastic. I only have six 4*s who aren't champed. I'm rapidly approaching the endgame for the 4* zone and I'll need to do something after that.

    5* land still terrifies me. Sure it's great for PvE now that scaling has *nothing* to do with your roster (something I lamented recently when CL9 opened up looking so painful to fight, but now fully understand the functionality of), but PvP sounds nightmarish. It sounds like more than ever PvP needs another proper overhaul if you end up ruining your chances forever just because you have two slightly champed 5*s.
  • JexmanJexman Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
    Good thread. I wanted to ask about my case also, since I'm not 100% sure of the replies here. I have Phoenix at 5-4-3 and I'd love to begin leveling her (at 345 now) but it sounds like it'll mess up my PVP. I *don't* want to have to use her every match. My next highest 5 stars are Strange at 5-1-4 (at 255 still) and Surfer at 3-3-3 (at 360).

    It's annoying bc I have every 5 star save Daredevil, most with several covers, & I never use them. Just scrolling past them as I choose who to level is annoying. Plus I get a rush when I draw a 5 star & yet, you're not supposed to level them if you want the game to be fun, apparently. Bleh. But maybe I'm wrong about that, hence my post.
  • BowgentleBowgentle Posts: 5,038 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jexman said:
    Good thread. I wanted to ask about my case also, since I'm not 100% sure of the replies here. I have Phoenix at 5-4-3 and I'd love to begin leveling her (at 345 now) but it sounds like it'll mess up my PVP. I *don't* want to have to use her every match. My next highest 5 stars are Strange at 5-1-4 (at 255 still) and Surfer at 3-3-3 (at 360).

    It's annoying bc I have every 5 star save Daredevil, most with several covers, & I never use them. Just scrolling past them as I choose who to level is annoying. Plus I get a rush when I draw a 5 star & yet, you're not supposed to level them if you want the game to be fun, apparently. Bleh. But maybe I'm wrong about that, hence my post.

    It doesn't make sense to level 5s that are not fully covered.
    You're better of sticking with your 4s.
  • JexmanJexman Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
    Ok cool---thanks! I still have plenty of 4 stars to level so it's no big deal.

    If I draw that 13th Phoenix cover (but nothing else changes for my 5 star roster), would it then make sense to level her? I'm not going to spend cp on her but I've drawn a couple of Phoenix covers recently & she's my 5 star BH so it could happen pretty quickly.
  • BlackBoltRocksBlackBoltRocks Posts: 2,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    @Jexman well, PvE has definitely become more fun. My 452 Surfer and 360 Thanos helped greatly in SCL8 Simulator, especially against that pesky Rogue and 5* Gambit.

    Since none of your 5* are at 13 covers, if you really want to level them up, I recommend no higher than lv360 for them. Your Surfer is there, so no worries, leave him. You can take both Phoenix and Strange up to lv360, and it shouldn't affect your PvP MMR. The only times you should take a 5* above lv360 (375 at most, depending on the levels of your 4*): a) a top-tier* one like Bolt, Thanos, Gambit, Peter Parker, Surfer (bias heh) is at 13 covers, or b) you have at least three solid ones at 13 covers, so you can champ all three at once. Provided you have 1.7million iso of course.

    *It doesn't necessarily have to be a top-tier though. As long as that 5* can help you hold your own in PvP, it should be fine. Examples include Steve Rogers, IM46, Goblin, Hawkeye. @Beer40 made Starlord his first 5* champ; you can check with him about his experiences.

  • Beer40Beer40 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    @Jexman well, PvE has definitely become more fun. My 452 Surfer and 360 Thanos helped greatly in SCL8 Simulator, especially against that pesky Rogue and 5* Gambit.

    Since none of your 5* are at 13 covers, if you really want to level them up, I recommend no higher than lv360 for them. Your Surfer is there, so no worries, leave him. You can take both Phoenix and Strange up to lv360, and it shouldn't affect your PvP MMR. The only times you should take a 5* above lv360 (375 at most, depending on the levels of your 4*): a) a top-tier* one like Bolt, Thanos, Gambit, Peter Parker, Surfer (bias heh) is at 13 covers, or b) you have at least three solid ones at 13 covers, so you can champ all three at once. Provided you have 1.7million iso of course.

    *It doesn't necessarily have to be a top-tier though. As long as that 5* can help you hold your own in PvP, it should be fine. Examples include Steve Rogers, IM40, Goblin, Hawkeye. @Beer40 made Starlord his first 5* champ; you can check with him about his experiences.

    Thanks for mentioning me, as I somehow missed this thread up until now. My top 4 characters are 451 Starlord, 290 Coulson, 289 Iceman, and 288 Mordo. I've got 28 champed 4*, mostly around 274. I'm a max progression PVE player and 575 minimum PVP player. That'll give you a baseline of what I'm working with.

    PVE is a breeze from SCL 7 down. I don't regret champing my 5* at all in this case. SCL 8 and SCL 9 can be tough in spots, but it would be much tougher without a champed 5*. 

    The reason those SCL can be tough is because of health packs. Playing both PVP/PVE in a small window of time each day will chew up some health packs, primarily because of the PVP experience.

    In PVP, your opponents will usually be:
    5* champ, 4* boosted, 3* required
    5*, sub level 400 5*, 3* required.
    Two sub level 400 5*, 3* required.
    Two boosted 4*, 3* required.

    The boosted 4* that I have seen are mostly at a higher level than the ones when I didn't have a champed 5*. The 3* required is usually at a higher level than before as well. I chalk this up to most people in 5* land having a much more developed roster than mine. 

    5* PVP matches for me are slower than the 4* ones were, usually. However, if you get a good cascade or have the right boosted 4* to team with, the matches can go even faster, despite the larger pools of health.

    Health packs are the issue, for me. You will take damage in PVP. Lots of it. More experienced players probably know how to manage this better. For me, I'm often compelled to drop a pack on SL after every match. This is often because SL is out in front for nearly every color match, despite having a boosted 4* to work with. I'd guess that I lose at least 30% health most matches and am simply afraid to waste potential good points by running a low health SL out there and getting wiped by a team I should beat.

    You don't have to run your 5* every match in PVP, if your boosted 4*s are good enough. However, and this is only my opinion, you make a juicier target to me if you're not running a champ 5*. Those are the matches I can usually get thru without having to give SL a health pack. So if you don't run your 5*, you might see more retals against you, I dunno.

    Do I regret champing my first 5*? At first, yes! PVP was much tougher. But I've quickly adapted and its fine now. I think the key is how quickly/willingly you are to adapt. I'm already looking past my 4*s and just waiting until I can get more champed 5*!!!

    That's my experience. Good luck all!


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