Brackets.

Kinesia

Ok, the discussion is closed. I have no wish to start the huge argument again, but I have some side questions.


I had not heard a thing about different "brackets" before and don't know how it works and the whole concept makes no sense to me.

It is presented in the game, through the rankings. as if all of Platinum is playing against all of Platinum.

If that's not true then this is basically fraud and probably illegal in some countries.

I'm not sure the ramifications of the current system have been considered. Any kind of "skew" in a competitive gambling environment (which this is) is very very dangerous...

Mainloop25

Brackets for non-coalition events cap at 1000,and coalition events at 3k. I first learned about them from Quick Battle, when I would see screen shots of the leaderboard completely different from mine, and that you would see the player counts cap at 3000. It was then learned that you could jump in when the brackets "flipped" (started a new bracket) and have a better chance at finishing top ten or fifty. These days there is less of advantage to jumping in at late brackets because you sacrifice progression rewards, but there is still a chance that you can jump in at the end into a bracket that has <50 people. I only do it if I had no time to play the event. It's cheap and cheesy but it's like a glorified daily login reward, so why not. 

Ohboy

Events work the same way as QB did(qb had a 3k max population before a new bracket opened)

Different events have different bracket sizes. You can tell how big an event is by looking at placement rewards. For eg, the recent hod event paid out 3k places depending on ranking, so it's a 3k max bracket. The nop event paid out 250 places, and was a 250 max bracket.

This actually means they have to give out more prizes to players than if it's just one gigantic event for the whole tier, and has generally been agreed to be a positive decision.

As I pointed out in the previous thread, it's very hard to be sure when the bracket is about to flip to a new one, and failing to game the system means condemning yourself to the lower brackets for the event. Failing leaves so much equity on the table I don't think it's worthwhile to try even if you had a system in place to know exactly when a bracket flips. Bear in mind you can fail simply because a new bracket doesn't open before the end of an event. Even prominent members like shteev for example weren't sure if there was going to be a second bracket, let alone a third.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's not possible to game in a reliable manner, and I wouldn't call it a fraud. 

Firinmahlazer

Gambling?

Sarahschmara

It's not terribly intuitive @Kinesia and D3 hasn't done a great job explaining how it works. 

It makes sense to cap the brackets at 3000, and it makes sense that there are more than 3000 platinum players... but it seems that there are no longer reliably more than 6000 platinum players. 

There used to be a third platinum bracket that could be joined very late in the event, rewarding more prizes for less effort although this wasn't used competitively since the coalitions need every possible ribbon in their squabbles for the top ten. But it was a good "trick" for high level players on holiday from their regular group. 

It's difficult to tell how many players are left (especially since they removed the event counters), but it seems safe to say that there are less than 6000 active platinum players and this exploit/gamble is no longer a viable option. 

Kinesia

Firinmahlazer said:

Gambling?

Yes, the random nature and it giving rewards make it a form of gambling.

Kinesia

Thank you for the explanations, that makes sense.

It might not be deliberate fraud, but saying "you are number 50" but not explicitly being open that you're lumped into a group of 3000 people rather than the "everyone" that is implied is at least misleading.

Australia has very strict laws about companies sticking to exactly what they say and not being allowed to mislead customers even accidentally.

Ohboy

In this case, being lumped together with everyone is much worse than being lumped with just 3k people. Also, the event is a freeroll. Still don't think it can be described as a fraud. 

Mainloop25

Yeah i fail to see why you want brackets larger. Smaller brackets were something we all wanted as a community. 

tfg76

Well, there seems to be a correlation between lower prizes and smaller brackets. HoD has much better prizes than HoR, but 3x the bracket. This makes the event more competitive and intense. Some like that, some don't (I do).

tfg76

There's a simple fix to any abuse here, BTW. Have everyone register to an event in advance, then calculate and distribute the brackets evenly once the event starts. 

babar3355

Sarahschmara said:

It's not terribly intuitive @Kinesia and D3 hasn't done a great job explaining how it works. 

It makes sense to cap the brackets at 3000, and it makes sense that there are more than 3000 platinum players... but it seems that there are no longer reliably more than 6000 platinum players. 

There used to be a third platinum bracket that could be joined very late in the event, rewarding more prizes for less effort although this wasn't used competitively since the coalitions need every possible ribbon in their squabbles for the top ten. But it was a good "trick" for high level players on holiday from their regular group. 

It's difficult to tell how many players are left (especially since they removed the event counters), but it seems safe to say that there are less than 6000 active platinum players and this exploit/gamble is no longer a viable option. 

I was on vacation for the last HoD and didn't join until Monday morning.  I was around #575 when I joined with 4-5 hours left on Monday.  I don't think many people joined after me.  Pretty safe to assume that the Platinum tier is now around 4000 or less players.

Seems like decent evidence that we have seen significant attrition if we used to fill up two full brackets plus some spillover.  Especially considering how many people have moved up to the platinum bracket since that point.

Kinesia

Heh. I don't "want" larger brackets, I just didn't know how it worked.

Ohboy

babar3355 said:

Sarahschmara said:

It's not terribly intuitive @Kinesia and D3 hasn't done a great job explaining how it works. 

It makes sense to cap the brackets at 3000, and it makes sense that there are more than 3000 platinum players... but it seems that there are no longer reliably more than 6000 platinum players. 

There used to be a third platinum bracket that could be joined very late in the event, rewarding more prizes for less effort although this wasn't used competitively since the coalitions need every possible ribbon in their squabbles for the top ten. But it was a good "trick" for high level players on holiday from their regular group. 

It's difficult to tell how many players are left (especially since they removed the event counters), but it seems safe to say that there are less than 6000 active platinum players and this exploit/gamble is no longer a viable option. 

I was on vacation for the last HoD and didn't join until Monday morning.  I was around #575 when I joined with 4-5 hours left on Monday.  I don't think many people joined after me.  Pretty safe to assume that the Platinum tier is now around 4000 or less players.

Seems like decent evidence that we have seen significant attrition if we used to fill up two full brackets plus some spillover.  Especially considering how many people have moved up to the platinum bracket since that point.

I was in the second bracket. Did you see me on your list? 

shteev

Ohboy said:

As I pointed out in the previous thread, it's very hard to be sure when the bracket is about to flip to a new one, and failing to game the system means condemning yourself to the lower brackets for the event. Failing leaves so much equity on the table I don't think it's worthwhile to try even if you had a system in place to know exactly when a bracket flips. Bear in mind you can fail simply because a new bracket doesn't open before the end of an event. Even prominent members like shteev for example weren't sure if there was going to be a second bracket, let alone a third.

It's unneccessary to work out if the second bracket has flipped or not... you just enter it as late as you can, so you don't lose any charges on your nodes: If you get a new bracket, then that's gravy... if you don't, you end up in the same bracket as you would have done if you'd joined earlier, no harm, no foul.

Entering in the last hour or so on a long event hoping to get the very last bracket is a gamble, IF you were able to play the event right from the start; but if you were not, because you had other calls on your time, or you did not own the necessary PWs, you are again, risking nothing.

Using the resources of a large meta-coalition was something we used to do a lot to see when new QB brackets had opened up, because speed counted in those things, and you really had to hit the ground running. This is not the case with event brackets.

Ohboy

Are you extending your exploit to people who join 18 hours late now? As someone who jumps around on starting times depending on my schedule, I've not found the second bracket to be less competitive than the first. Sometimes it's harder and sometimes it's easier.

Entering at the last minute is a long shot gamble that always risks something. Just the progression rewards alone are risked by not entering early enough to win them in time... Which can be done even without the new walker. 

shteev

Ohboy said:

Are you extending your exploit to people who join 18 hours late now? As someone who jumps around on starting times depending on my schedule, I've not found the second bracket to be less competitive than the first. Sometimes it's harder and sometimes it's easier.

IMO, that used to be true before participation dropped off, but I find the second bracket is noticably easier on a number of events now, particular non-coalition ones, since many players are so disillusioned with the game that they only play events that are 'necessary' for their continued participation in their coalitions.

Ohboy

Which events are you talking about?

HoR has 1k brackets and more than two brackets, and legacy events are 250 max brackets.

Events start at 1am my time. I can usually jump in at event start, 7am the next day, noon or after work and not miss charges. I have not noticed any significant difference in difficulty joining in any of those times. 

Firinmahlazer

Kinesia said:

Firinmahlazer said:

Gambling?

Yes, the random nature and it giving rewards make it a form of gambling.

I see what you're getting at. I thought you meant people were somehow making bets and winning money. 

TheDragonHermit

Firinmahlazer said:

Kinesia said:

Firinmahlazer said:

Gambling?

Yes, the random nature and it giving rewards make it a form of gambling.

I see what you're getting at. I thought you meant people were somehow making bets and winning money. 

Yeah there can be some differences in regional definitions of gambling and laws that govern such activities. From what I understand it can be quite frustrating for game companies.

Kinesia

Ohboy said:

Which events are you talking about?

HoR has 1k brackets and more than two brackets, and legacy events are 250 max brackets.

Events start at 1am my time. I can usually jump in at event start, 7am the next day, noon or after work and not miss charges. I have not noticed any significant difference in difficulty joining in any of those times. 

How does Nodes of Power work? That seems to be the one it's hard to not miss things on.


But, yes, I'm in Australia and rarely get to do much at all until on my way home after work.