Should @Brigby pass this message on to D3's upper management?

babar3355

Yes

@bken1244 If you think elitist players are the only ones who want the game to have the ability to collect all of the cards, then I think you are mistaken but respect your opinion.  I thought your response indicated you liked the idea but preferred other channels.  

I mentioned other contributors because I was told some people took it as very Babar focused and wanted to give credit where credit was due.

Anyway, I genuinely think it's better for the game.   That is the only reason I made the post.

shteev

As a matter of interest, when you talk about wanting to collect whole card sets, are you talking about masterpieces too? Because you'd be hard pressed to collect a set of masterpieces in paper MTG.

Ohboy

No

Houdin said:

bken1234 said:

babar3355 said:

Just to set the record straight I want to acknowledge that the ideas, thoughts, and opinions in the original post are in no way mine alone.  Lot's of credit is due to many people including most recently efforts by Seifer, Dogslaya and many of their crew at YH1J.  Lots of ideas and data also came from my coalition GP, work with other coalitions and their members, and many of you on these forums.  I just want to have some positive improvements in this game that we love and am willing to try whatever it takes to get them done.

On the subject of asking Brigby to push this up the ladder... well it's what he does.  I don't think we need to protect him from his own job.

As @Brigby said in @bken1234's post last week, "I will continue to do my best to be that bridge of communication between the community and the developers".  Basically it is his job and he has done a pretty solid job of it in my opinion.  I know that he stated he brought these threads to the developers:

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/57380/d3-prioritization-thread/p1

and

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/65461/why-austerity-is-the-wrong-plan/p1

I am also confident he has brought many others to the developers which is why I think we have stuff like deck slots, a fair tie breaker system, Trials of the Planewalkers, and an incoming duplicate crafting system.  Can we not try to protect  Brigby from the community and instead acknowledge his positive efforts in a tough role?

Anyway, seems silly to vote no because you don't want Brigby to be the one to take the message to the developers in his weekly meetings with them.  So I am going to assume the vote stands at 27-1-3.  I also think my letter was too long and people forgot to vote, as a few agreeing posts don't show as yes votes

So basically the basis for this is the opinion of the top 2 coalitions and your interpretation of what people say on the forum combined with some data? 

Becaude i think the thousands of other coalitions might weigh a little more. 

My vote now stands on te basis of elitist bias -- why don't you hop into Discord or get on shteev's Facebook and ask these questions and lead this discussion with non-top 10 players. 

Wow. Aren't we just holier than though today.

How about you take a moment to appreciate the amount of thought and effort that went into this passionate post.

More so than I can say for anything ive seen in months to possibly help this game be great again.

Stats don't lie.
The player base and income has been falling since the myriad of changes listed above.

If D3 doesn't do something to retain their players the game will die and then we will all lose out.

Perhaps maybe some people should try to be constructive.
Just sayin.

Oh stats don't lie. People lie about stats all the time though. 

Take a look at the provided stats. The graph starts from Sept 06. Notice where it starts it's (constant) dip? Aha! That's about when brigby joined us! What horrible conclusion can we draw from this silliness? 

While it dipped a lot at the start of the year,  it has since recovered. The graph also conclusively shows that the things brought up in this complaint letter did not change the gradient of descent. 

babar3355

Yes

shteev said:

As a matter of interest, when you talk about wanting to collect whole card sets, are you talking about masterpieces too? Because you'd be hard pressed to collect a set of masterpieces in paper MTG.

That's a good question.  I would assume that most players wouldn't acquire all of the mythics even..  Just those that either dedicate a lot of time, money or both to the game.  I think they should structure it so it is very difficult to collect all of the masterpeices. 

That being said, it seems there is some disconnect between JC and the card development team and whoever is setting drop rates.  Why would you create 3 masterpeices with synergistic properties, namely Lightning Greaves, Champions Helm and Gauntlets of Power if it was nearly impossible to collect all three.  Do you really think that they knew that somewhere in the ballpark of zero players would ever have all three when they created them?  And its not like these cards had synergies in the paper version nor were they so good that they warranted incredible chasing by whales. Ironically, when they were in the elite pack you couldn't even buy unlimited jewels. 

It just feels like the card developers and presumably D3 are disconnected on the ability for players to actually target and/or collect the cards they are making.

As for collecting a whole set of masterpiece cards, there is a paper KLD block going right now on ebay for $1500.  That sounds pretty expensive.  But if you took the same $1,500 and spent it on mana crystals in MTGPQ you would get 45,000 crystals which could buy you 150 premium packs.  150 premium packs is 3,750 cards (+ the rares) and with a drop rate of 0.05% you would expect to get (drum roll) 1.88 masterpeices!  Hope they aren't dupes.  I can't even comprehend how much you would have to spend to even get above a 50% chance of actually collecting all 3 of the masterpeices listed above.  Perhaps @volrak could help us out and maybe fix my potentially faulty math. 

Also, I don't want to get into a war of worlds with you @Ohboy, I respect your opinion and your stance.  However, I certainly don't see any evidence that the recent changes to the game have had a positive impact, and it does seem like we might be at an inflated inflection point after the recent patch.  Perhaps we will stay up there, but I wouldn't count on it. 

Brigby

Hi @babar3355. Thanks for writing this informative article. While the team and I are aware that this perspective may only be representative of a certain demographic, it is certainly still insightful, and I will be sure to pass it along to the developers in my weekly report.

Lagartha

Part of the discussion that sparked this post was actually based on coalitions just barely breaching top 100. I took a step down in my competitive play for personal reasons recently, and joined random coalitions completely outside of and unafilliated with any top ten group. I played multiple events with these guys, asked them the same questions we asked the "toxic elite" and got nearly the exact same feedback. 

There will obviously be a difference of opinion when you've got a player base of this size, but for the most part, I feel like @babar3355 has some great ideas that shouldn't be completely ignored simply because top ten players share the sentiment. 

Discussing these things is the only way to really try and make progress toward figuring out what we ALL want. So if you disagree, please speak your mind. No need to insult anyone for not feeling the same way you do. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

babar3355

Yes

Brigby said:

Hi @babar3355. Thanks for writing this informative article. While the team and I are aware that this perspective may only be representative of a certain demographic, it is certainly still insightful, and I will be sure to pass it along to the developers in my weekly report.

Thanks @Brigby. 

Like Lagartha, I also don't think this is a top tier player view only.  In fact, it seems reasonable that the extreme inability to build a collection is exactly what causes so much attrition of newer and more casual players.  Top players have no problems still competing at the highest level in whichever block. More ability to build strong collections would encourage people to keep playing and keep spending.

Anyway, I appreciate you passing the information along.  Even if this is an end-game focused idea, iI am sure it is important to D3 to have a fun and engaging end game.

Ampmp11

Yes

I'm not sure how having access to more elusive cards would be a bad thing when they're producing new cards every 3 months?

And if you're spending money and time you absolutely should be able to collect whole set at some point. Just because you're able to collect the whole set doesn't mean that you're going to be best in the game, or that you're going to be constantly getting perfects while everyone else isn't.

I'm really not sure why they slowed down the accumulation of mythics. Playing with mythics is fun. Games are supposed to be fun.

shteev

Lagartha said:

Part of the discussion that sparked this post was actually based on coalitions just barely breaching top 100. I took a step down in my competitive play for personal reasons recently, and joined random coalitions completely outside of and unafilliated with any top ten group. I played multiple events with these guys, asked them the same questions we asked the "toxic elite" and got nearly the exact same feedback. 

There will obviously be a difference of opinion when you've got a player base of this size, but for the most part, I feel like @babar3355 has some great ideas that shouldn't be completely ignored simply because top ten players share the sentiment. 

Discussing these things is the only way to really try and make progress toward figuring out what we ALL want. So if you disagree, please speak your mind. No need to insult anyone for not feeling the same way you do. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sadly, any non-toxic players touched by the toxic elite immediately become toxic, and so thier views are no longer representative of the silent majority. We're a bit like zombies in that respect.

Lagartha

You'd think eventually we'd infect enough and then we could all share the same toxic opinions. Gosh that would make these forums boring though, wouldn't it? 

shteev

Lagartha said:

You'd think eventually we'd infect enough and then we could all share the same toxic opinions. Gosh that would make these forums boring though, wouldn't it? 

I'm pretty sure I know at least one guy who'd hold out against the toxic apocalypse like some kind of MTGPQ-based Omega Man.

gillkonam

You know Brigby, I've seen very few verbatim long-form responses from the developers from you, and I see that as a major issue. My explanation for the current state of affairs takes the form of an analogy and nothing more, but it's an appropriate one in this circumstance. Brigby, you are basically a priest. We are the parishioners of this game. We bring to you lamentations, suggestions, etc. You take these to the "gods" of this game, and we get back veiled forecasts. We are told that they have heard us. Sometimes it is apparent that they have answered our "prayers" but often enough we have plagues sent upon us, or the very least, "mysterious ways" applied to the game. There has been some direct communication from the developers, but it's far too little. What would it hurt to give us more direct communication, real words, and real plans for change. I've noted that this happens a lot with games. The developers exist in a bubble and are, thus, sheltered from their fans. Not all fan-based complaints are legitimate, but there comes a point where the sheltering becomes less then productive. You know would be nice? How about a AMA from a developer every once in a while. Not an controlled interview, but an AMA. In short, I appreciate your role Brigby, but it's clear to a lot of us that the effect that its having isn't enough. Not everything needs to be hidden to prevent scamming of the system. I realize that you probably have WOTC's guidelines to deal with too, but all of these things can at least be stated. You can tells us why certain things are the way they are and how they are dealt with. Unlike with the paper game, we have no concept of how the "magic" translates between the "pack" and our opening of it.  I've never for example opened a pack of the paper game and gotten a double of a card outside of a foil. In some of the packs I've opened, I've gotten 3 of the same cards. That's just one issue. That's one of many questions. The time for just telling people that you've told the developers has past. We need more and many of us have paid for more, so how about we clear up the veil a bit huh?

TL: DR: Sunshine would help. 

Gilesclone

White space would help

nerdstrap

Gunmix25 said:

Matthew said:

There's just one other thing I'd like to note.

Make microtransactions actually micro. I'd pay three or four bucks for a solid rare. I'd pay $10 to $15 for a mythic without other stuff bundled into the purchase. Dozens of others have made similar statements. I am certain this would increase revenue. It's very difficult to justify paying 2/3 of the cost of a physical console game disc for a purely digital purchase that also happens to have a shelf life.

 

Something like this would quickly get out of hand and the whales will ultimate dominate the events once again and leaving the FTP players in the dust. I am not against the idea completely but there must be a balance. IMHO with the crafting system coming and Brigby hinted that a type of crafting point system is used. I suggest what you are asking for but that micro transaction also requires X amount of crafting points to be able to do so. If you do not have the points then you cannot spend the cash to buy the mythic or rare outright. If you do have those points available, then the transaction deducts said points (which would likely be more expensive than that of crafting directing because it pinpoints a purchase outright). This would certainly slow the roll of any whales from trying to abuse the system.   

No one cares what FTP players think. If someone wants to buy all the cards they will still lose to well crafted decks. Card balance is the real issue. 

gillkonam

Gilesclone said:

White space would help

Touche my friend, touche.

Kinesia

Yes

One part of the "collecting" thing that would help make the company money is already in the game, just the implementation is broken.

The Elite packs.

Firstly, dupes, the support work involved to stop this costs the company money but is completely unnecessary, the server _knows_ the cards people have. There is zero reason for people to get a dupe except for myopic stupidity in initial implementation. I suspect it was to stop people buying just rare packs and getting all the masterpieces cheaper but it's a bad solution.

Instead...
Have it 100 for a Rare, guaranteed non-dupe but ONLY one of the rares, zero chance of mythic or masterpiece.
Have a mythic pack at 300 that is a guaranteed non-dupe mythic by zero chance of a masterpiece.
Have the masterpiece pack at 600 with a guaranteed non-dupe masterpiece.

If it is separated this way the company has no risk, no maintenance, no support and some people _will_ buy the unobtainium to get everything. Don't try to stop them, you actually _want_ them to do this.

The lack of surity, the pain in dealing with dupes, these all hurt the experience which is meant to ALWAYS be a positive amazing one. 

Brigby

Hi @Kinesia . Since the previous, most recent comment was over a month ago, we request that players start a new thread, as the contents/opinions of this discussion thread might have changed. (For example, PvE Coalition Events now have 6 hour recharge rates, instead of 4)

Thank you for understanding.