PvP Dogpiling... how do I avoid it?

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Stick
Stick Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
So, I've noticed this happening a few times when I put effort in to PvP. Usually I'll gather up some points, then at certain tiers I'll get jumped by 6-10 people at once and lose a ton of points. Just last night, I popped my shield in the Rocket & Groot PvP half an hour before the event finished. (I was around 25th place at the time, with a meagre 700-ish points) I was doing okay clawing out some points, then about 5 minutes before the event is over, I come out of a fight and found I lost 180 points.

This is extremely frustrating, and I need to understand it better.

Is it just that my team is weak? I know I was beating people with stronger teams, so that's my suspicion. I also remember reading a PvP guide a while ago that said some alliances save hitlists and stuff. I try to avoid double tapping people if I can help it to avoid retaliation, but I also think some people don't have the same qualms.

Is there anything I can do about this? Is this bad game design, or is it fair? I still finished top 50, so it's not the end of the world.

If nothing else, I'd like to hear from seasoned PvPers about how they feel about the topic. Do you get dogpiled too? (and lose?) Is there something else I'm not thinking about?

Comments

  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,826 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I don't usually push past 575, but I know there are a couple of break points where you suddenly start being visible to a lot more people once your score passes that point. Also, the last three hours of an event are just brutal. Lots of late climbers looking for points, and most of the top scorers are already shielded, so anyone unshielded with an even remotely decent score is a target.
  • FokaiHI
    FokaiHI Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker
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    It's all about timing, floating, and shielding. We just went thru a couple of posts talking about hit lists or cyber bullying. What it really boils down to is beating beatable teams. It's part of the norm. Learning the 3 things I pointed out will help a lot. There are other factors too, but you can find many posts regarding pvp. 
  • Stick
    Stick Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
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    Thanks. I was doing some reading as well. My takeaway is mostly once you get high enough, you kinda become a target, and dogpiling comes with the territory. I'll continue to plug away; when I try, I'd like to hit those 900 points.
  • Moon Roach
    Moon Roach Posts: 2,863 Chairperson of the Boards
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    It's also to do with the time.  If you play when the US is asleep, you get a lot fewer attacks.  Sometimes not being in The One True Time Zone Or The Three To The West is an advantage.
  • Stick
    Stick Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
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    It's also to do with the time.  If you play when the US is asleep, you get a lot fewer attacks.  Sometimes not being in The One True Time Zone Or The Three To The West is an advantage.
    Oh definitely! I used to score really high in events based on the time which they finish! Unfortunately these days, I work from 8a-4p, so I don't stay up that late. I *have* found that during the week though if I play at work, I don't countered as hard before 11a local time.
  • MpqTron
    MpqTron Posts: 45 Just Dropped In
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    Never played the last 3 hours of an event. I hit 900 in all but one event last season, and was pretty much shielded and done between 6 and 23 hours of event ending. Always had 1 boosted 4 min to be able to hit 900. In the event I couldn't get to 900, I didn't have any boosted 4's
  • Spidurman27
    Spidurman27 Posts: 184 Tile Toppler
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    if you're the best risk/return value in the queue, you'll get hit.  Happens to me most events early, I know it's never personal just math.  

    if you're going to be in that position hopping the best way to preserve points.   Staying out too long means you're visible long enough to get smacked around.  
  • Stick
    Stick Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
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    Thanks for all the tips, lots of stuff to keep in mind! :)
  • Spidurman27
    Spidurman27 Posts: 184 Tile Toppler
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    Everyone gets hit - unless you have a small army of 550s and 266s, you're cannon fodder to someone else and eventually that person will see you and hit you.

    If you are unshielded and worth good points, someone will see it and exploit that quickly....if its a common time many people may do that.   Just the nature of the system we play in (whether good or bad is irrelevant, it's reality).  

    The only two cures for not getting hit are a)not being worth points and b)shields.   A means a late climb or not playing, B costs resources.  
  • Stick
    Stick Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
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    I've been getting back into it, and it's starting to make a bit more sense now. I really do wish there was a limit to how many times you could get hit while climbing, but oh well. It's only really bad in the last crunch before the end of an event. In a twist of irony, I ended up triple tapping a guy (plus double tapping a few) in the Blind Justice PvP because I was in the middle of a good climb and I had just ran out of targets worth more than 5 points.
  • NotBAMF
    NotBAMF Posts: 408 Mover and Shaker
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    I just kind of accept this as a thing that happens. I tend to play all PVPs as soon as they open to get 575 and get the CP, and then I just let people smack me down after that point. I've never used shield; they seem like a waste of coins to me, but I guess a lot of other people are big on them. 
  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 981 Critical Contributor
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    Lots of good advice above.  I'll add some specifics here:

    The earlier you do your final climb the fewer hits will come in.  The final 14 hours of an event are the most hectic because people know they can use three shields and single hop to the end so trying to final climb then is the toughest.  If you are planning to spend on shields your best bet is often to use a 24 hour shield in lieu of the 3/8/3 pattern that the late climbers use.  Try to figure out your float point (the point where hits come in more frequently) and then time it like the people above said. Seems like you are having trouble at around 700 which is a very common choke point.  At certain scores your team suddenly becomes viewable by bigger and bigger rosters who will happily hit you for even a few points since their other options are much much tougher matches.  

    Common choke points where that occurs are at 500 points, 650 points, 725 points, 800 points and especially over 900 where you become available to just about everyone.  As you hit those points you become available to queue by more and more rosters all the way up to max champed 5* rosters.  

    Even teams that would normally skip you might use your team to reset on after grilling an easier team for other people in a battlechat if it is easy enough for their roster to beat.  

    If you have a specific goal (lets say the 4* cover at 900) try to climb to a point where a single match will take you above that point and shield there (875 in our example).  Then while shielded skip until you find a quality target match that you can win quickly.  Use boosts for that last fight especially the +AP boosts.  

    Best times to climb are when another event is ending or a grind is ending in a PVE slice.  I frequently play in slice 5 for both PVE and PVP but when PVP has a reward I really want I'll move to another PVE slice so I can climb while others are busy with their PVE grind.  Like someone else said above try to hit times when US players are unavailable, I often time my first shield right around 4AM EST since that is a pretty chill time in terms of players being out.  US players are asleep and Western European players are still doing their morning commute so fewer hits than usual will come in.  

    In terms of hit lists it is extremely unlikely that you would find yourself on one.  Hit lists are reserved for players who routinely hit the same person over and over on a climb AND are frequently in the top 5.  Most alliances/battlechats are only worried about players who are "stealing" top placements by double/triple tapping members.  It is pretty hard to get on one of those lists without having a very advanced roster and/or frequently making top placement.  From what you describe that doesn't seem to fit you.  

    Finally if you really want to start making moves in PVP I would strongly recommend joining the Line community.  Not only can you join a battlechat to coordinate easier final matches with other players but you can also get fantastic advice on what roster moves to make to climb quicker / more efficiently and meet other players who have been learning the ins and outs of PVP for much longer than you.  If you are interested I would be happy to put you in touch with people that in your preferred slice that can get you pointed in the right direction.  Please PM me if that is something that would interest you.  
  • Stick
    Stick Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
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    That's some good advice. I'll probably get in on the line thing eventually. As a lot of my people around my level do, I tend to try and grab the 575 point reward as a minimum, but if I can I'll go for the 4* cover. I've started doing SCL 7 instead of 8 in the hopes that I'll face slightly less 5* teams and such. I recently joined an alliance focused on PvE, so that's my number one priority right now. When I pick a slice, it's based around my work schedule and my PvE schedule.

    I'm going to see how this season goes, but yeah, I'll probably get in touch for more detailed advice as I get into a smoother rhythm and everything.

    Thanks!
  • aa25
    aa25 Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
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    Stick said:
    That's some good advice. I'll probably get in on the line thing eventually. As a lot of my people around my level do, I tend to try and grab the 575 point reward as a minimum, but if I can I'll go for the 4* cover. I've started doing SCL 7 instead of 8 in the hopes that I'll face slightly less 5* teams and such. I recently joined an alliance focused on PvE, so that's my number one priority right now. When I pick a slice, it's based around my work schedule and my PvE schedule.

    I'm going to see how this season goes, but yeah, I'll probably get in touch for more detailed advice as I get into a smoother rhythm and everything.

    Thanks!
    It is counter-intuitive, but currently, choosing different SCL doesn't effect the opponents you face. Although, you will be competing for placement rewards with only people who choose the same SCL as you.
  • Stick
    Stick Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
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    Really? Weird. Would you say my odds are better placement-wise picking a lower SCL? I mostly care about progression rewards, but if I can get better placement rewards, I'll try. I noticed that 7 and 8 give out the exact same progression rewards.
  • aa25
    aa25 Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
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    Stick said:
    Really? Weird. Would you say my odds are better placement-wise picking a lower SCL? I mostly care about progression rewards, but if I can get better placement rewards, I'll try. I noticed that 7 and 8 give out the exact same progression rewards.
    Tentatively, yes. But it varies from event to event (partly due to the bracket size is quite small of 500 each) I usually don't see much different between 7&8, but 6 is quite different since the cover at 900 is a 3*.
  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 981 Critical Contributor
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    Stick said:
    Really? Weird. Would you say my odds are better placement-wise picking a lower SCL? I mostly care about progression rewards, but if I can get better placement rewards, I'll try. I noticed that 7 and 8 give out the exact same progression rewards.
    That depends a lot on which slice you play in.  I play in slice 5 and for top 5 and top 10 the score cutoffs are much more forgiving most of the time in SCL 7 vs SCL 8.  A 1200 score is almost always good enough for a top 5 in SCL 7 whereas it might be a bit higher in SCL 8.  A 900+ score can often net a top 10 whereas again that probably isn't going to get you much more than top 25 in SCL 8.  Again though that is only slice 5.  In slice 4 for instance even in SCL 7 a score of 2000+ might not get you a top 5.  

    All of which only really matters at the very top of the bracket scoring.  The main difference between 7 and 8 is that 8 provides an extra 4* cover for top 5.  
  • alaeth
    alaeth Posts: 446 Mover and Shaker
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    It's been a while since I struggled with PvP climbs, but I remember them well!!

    Without knowing anything about your roster, I'm going to assume 3 or 4* Champs?

    Great advice from other posters, so all i have to add is:

    * Learn to shield hop... weave your 3 and 8 hour shields and stay out as little as possible, especially once you reach the choke points that revskip mentioned.

    * Once you start hopping, you want your FASTEST team, defense is irrelevant, so go with IM40 + anyone... LOL - whichever team you can use that is FAST.  My wife runs a stopwatch, anything more than 5 mins and you want to start thinking about retreating to shield. Also goes for if you're losing - get a bad board/enemy cascade? Lose your "nuker"? bail!  better to lost a bit on that fight, then to stick with it, staying unshielded and exposed.

    * avoid climbing "on timer" (3 hrs to go, 8hrs, 11 hrs (which is 8+3)) - lots of others out, so stay shielded... but SEARCH during those times

    * avoid attacking less than 53 pts if you can... because your value will be higher than what you gained, almost certain retaliation



    And lastly:
    * avoid, avoid, avoid the last half hour... anyone aiming for placement doesn't care about your points, 5 or 10 points can push them up... you want to be safety shielded well before the last couple hours. :)
  • Stick
    Stick Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
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    More great tips, thank you! I think I need to get on Line. Is there a forum post that shows which Line app to get? I was doing Weapon Tex Mex and I got super frustrated with getting quad tapped at times. If I can't get placement, I'd at least like to be able to co-ordinate with people more if it reduces the chances of me getting jumped on while I'm trying to climb, if at all possible.