Kiora vs Nissa 3

Twee

I've been dead set on getting Kiora as soon as she's available, and soon she will be.  However, that Nissa 3 tho..  If you could re-roll Kiora would you still get her, or is that new Nissa a better option? 

Abenjes

get Kiora.......she is better in nearly every way

Twee

I just read a post where you advocated for Kiora.  I went back and looked at their abilities and I concluded the same.  As time goes by hopefully people who have both can chime in.

mournfen

I currently have both and abilities go to Kiora she is more versatile IMO. What is most important is 2 U/G walkers for events. Many times I have wanted Kiora on both blue and green. Now I essentially can and both have good abilities. Kiora still slightly better.

I have been running same deck for both. 

hawkyh1

I think kiora might have a slight edge in cast x creatures
objectives.

HH

Thuran

Kiora seems way stronger.

Nissa3's first ability generates up to 8 mana at level 60, compared to draining 6 with kiora, regardless of cards in hand, and focused on one card - point kiora

Second ability is not bad, but giving every card cycling 1 basically switches out your hand, and does just about nothing in a cycling deck, which n3 will almost always be. 

Her ultimate is insane and ends games very very fast, like having a drake haven with haste. Easily her best ability, but sadly it will often be a win more. If you have a cycling deck, you are likely deploying drake Haven before this card anyway, although playing it on turn 2 with the right ramp is very cute. By comparison, kiora's ultimate always contributes and can save and turn around a losing game, as well as allow you to play creature less. Both are strong, but I feel N3 is win more, whereas Kiora is probably win even if losing.

Point Kiora.

That said, N3 has far better mana gain (+1 on green is a big deal). But overall it feels like kiora is the superior walker in terms of power and flexibility

madwren

Thuran said:

 Both are strong, but I feel N3 is win more, whereas Kiora is probably win even if losing.

This is pretty much it in a nutshell.

Cycling is a strong/broken enough mechanic that Kiora is already winning consistently in 3-5 turns. There's nothing that N3 can add to that.  Cycling cards don't need mana, non-cycling cards don't need to gain cycling, and the ultimate is useless when I'm already throwing out stacks of drakes at will. Meanwhile, every one of Kiora's abilities are relevant and potentially game-changing.

N3's biggest virtue is, as pointed out above, that you can play a poor man's Kiora on a second node.

wereotter

So my thoughts:

Points to Nissa for mana gains, she gets +4 on green verses the +3 Kiora gets without sacrificing any mana gains elsewhere. Points for having a higher life total. And I would say point for her ability to generate mana on the first ability since overall she can potentially make just as much mana if not more than Kiora. And since we know how much mana generation means in the game, that +1 over the course of a match really adds up, and it means Nissa gets more value out of green gem conversion supports and spells than Kiora does.

Points for Kiora are entirely from abilities. Her first ability denies your opponent mana making for a potential 12 point mana swing in your favor rather than the 8 Nissa can produce, however this is nullified based off how many cards in hand and if your opponent has banked mana or not. Points for her second ability to tutor a creature and give it mana. This can be game changing if you're lacking creatures and didn't draw one to help turn you around (granted Nissa's second ability gives you a chance at this too with giving all your cards "Cycling 1" but it's not a guarantee, nor does it give the creature mana, and you had to have banked mana to use it, but potentially Nissa can get you multiple creatures off her ability while Kiora gives you a guaranteed one) Points to Kiora for the third ability. Creating big creatures with reach out of thin air is more valuable long-term than giving yourself a buff when you cycle a card, Nissa's third ability will lose relevance once cycling rotates out of standard where Kiora's will remain relevant, especially considering in a normal match Nissa's second and third abilities will likely never interact with each other.

Hard for me to declare a winner, however, I would say that I could put my current Kiora deck into Nissa's build and Nissa would probably do better with it than Kiora does as the deck doesn't rely on using any of the abilities beyond the first, and since Nissa has higher life and higher mana gains, it means she would survive longer, potentially, and be able to use the spells in the deck faster.

Ultimately I think it really depends on what deck you want to build, and what's available, but both are strong planeswalkers.

Abenjes

tentacle videos!!!, why wouldn't you get Kiora

//Removed Inappropriate Content -Brigby

PersonMan

When a new Planeswalker comes out, there are always events that require them.  So buying N3 gives you a real shot at winning unobtaniun and crystals and Rares.  You probably wouldn't even need to level her if you already have Drake Haven, New Perspectives, and Curator of Mysteries.  

Other than that, I agree that Kiora is better, and unlike N3, Kiora probably won't be obsolete in a year, like poor Arlynn. 

ElfNeedsFood

The planned oscelesence is a problem with walkers these days...  Then again, getting a new walker per month and leveling them up is probably sustainable for the long term and the new walkers a year from now might make Kiora look feeble by comparison in any case.

If you think cycling is fun, then N3 will make it bigger and badder. If you think it's boring but do it anyways, she'll make cycling go quicker and it'll be less of a chore...  If you don't want to use cycling at all, uninstall the game and come back in three months when the new block hits and we've all forgotten about cycling...

madwren

Kiora's first ability is light years ahead of Nissa's.  She doesn't generate six mana, she steals six mana. That's a 12-mana swing, which can set an opponent back multiple turns.  Additionally, the burst of six mana frequently allows you to cast a specific needed spell. For example, you could use her ability and make a single on-color match and cast any spell 12 mana or under that you drew.

By comparison, Nissa would generate 10 mana to that additional spell. The extra mana given to the other spells, while it looks interesting on paper, has very little impact.

Over several uses of their respective abilities, Kiora's mana drain ability has a far, far more detrimental effect to the opponent than Nissa's is beneficial to you.

Steeme

Three reasons why I bought Nissa 3:

1. I already have Kiora.  She really needs to be your first choice.

2. I wanted another G/U option.

3. I don't have a lot of the key Cycling goodies, but I do have New Perspectives.  As such I'm not actually using Cycling that much unless it's an objective (or Trial of Zeal), so why not join in on all the "fun".

ElfNeedsFood

@Steeme New Perspectives is the key to cycling. Shadowstorm Vizier can take Drake Haven's slot but no other cards give you more cards and have a net negative casting cost. 

Steeme

ElfNeedsFood said:

@Steeme New Perspectives is the key to cycling. Shadowstorm Vizier can take Drake Haven's slot but no other cards give you more cards and have a net negative casting cost. 

Win condition?

shteev

Tbh I'm more interested in how powerful N3 is compared to other planeswalkers. It seems like a given to me that Kioras abilities are stronger, but in the pantheon of PWs N3 is still a UG walker, and that's an extremely potent combination.

ElfNeedsFood

New Perspectives gives you mana with each new cycle card.  Pump Vizier just like the Drake only slower.

shteev

ElfNeedsFood said:

New Perspectives gives you mana with each new cycle card.  Pump Vizier just like the Drake only slower.

If you lack NewP you can play with Monuments and still break cycling. It really is that silly. Shadowstorm Vizier is a total red herring, there are far superior win conditions around; Faith of the Devoted, obviously, but any big creature will do; I like Angel of Invention. Also there's nothing wrong with casting a few Viziers of Shifting Sands or Shimmering Drakes and getting some beatdown with them.

ElfNeedsFood

Yep. There are lots of ways to break cycling. Just pointing out not having the full set can still cause infinite loops.

Steeme

ElfNeedsFood said:

Yep. There are lots of ways to break cycling. Just pointing out not having the full set can still cause infinite loops.

Thanks for the insight.  I found that the Vizier was too slow, but I'm biased as that was my experience in the Trial of Zeal 3.x nodes.

I tried Nissa 3 just now, using Sandworm Convergence, Harbinger of Tides for bounce, Channeler Initiate for ramp and a strong body, then New perspectives and cycling stuff.

Once you pop Nissa's 3rd, the game is pretty much over.  Just cycle cards to pump your creatures, plus you get free mana for more fuel.  It's off the charts.  More powerful than Kiora actually, because I find the Octopus token will just get removed the next turn.

I also decided to whale out, bought the big crystal pack and pulled the lever of the slot machine.  One of my packs fizzled, which should come as no surprise, but I did manage to get Drake Haven and Lay Claim.

So make some room boys and girls, I'm jumpin' on the bandwagon.

Cycle Ho!

ElfNeedsFood

Trial of Zeal's key is Cast Out and anything else you want in the deck. Cycling decks help you get Cast Out faster...