PvP mid-tier wall

mohio

Some of my alliance-mates and I have noticed that our max 2*/2*->3* transitioning teams have been hitting a wall right around 700-750 points in the last 2 or 3 PvP events. You feel great, beating other max 2* teams and even a hand full of mixed 1* and 2* teams, then all of a sudden the next guy pops up and they're all level 100+ with at least one 141.

Is this only happening "early" in the event because those are the teams with high enough points to show up in your queue? It's been happening even with ~8 hours left. It must be the point where the game switches from using "native" MMR (i.e. what you can influence by winning and losing) to something more based off total points in that event. Has anyone else noticed this? Can any devs help explain what's going on (a stretch I know)?

Unknown

Yep, usually see the same thing. 700-900 is a tough slog most times.

and yes, it's because once you peek into that range there's a much smaller pool of people to match you with and it tends to be stronger rosters

Unknown

I got opponents like that around 600 points in Hollowpoint a few hours ago. My team was 2 maxed 2* and a level 80 (with buff) GSBW.

Unknown

Without explaining the rationale why, because as players we can only speculate, I'll say this...

Fielding a 2* team myself (okay admittedly I do have most 3*s at L85), it's pretty darned easy to take down any team with just one L141 as long as you use boosts - this means you save all your high point targets and boost them down and shield up, which should allow you to break the 800pt barrier.

Unknown

Am I correct in thinking that if I attack someone for 25 points, they may only lose 18 or 19 points? So that every win adds a couple more points the available pool?

If so, I think how tough it gets at a certain point is also dependent upon the tournament. If the reward is more desirable, everyone grinds more, thus more potential points in the pool, and the possibility of more easily beaten teams at higher point placements.
I'm fielding teams of level 85 2*s, and just recently got a 3* to over 100. Still, with that roster I've been able to regularly top 25, and often top 10 (have hit 2nd once or twice, but never 1st, but I'm never gunning for it, so that's fine by me). 7-800 is usually achievable, but 900 is where I need to boost if I want to win consistently.

mohio

Yeah, I usually boost to get to the mid 800s then shield up (quite a juicy target for those 141 teams). It's just frustrating seeing that I pretty much need 2 maxed out 3* to grind through that slog and make it to 900 and above (I've made it once or twice but it was before they changed things up a couple weeks ago).

Unknown

j12601 wrote:

Am I correct in thinking that if I attack someone for 25 points, they may only lose 18 or 19 points? So that every win adds a couple more points the available pool?

If so, I think how tough it gets at a certain point is also dependent upon the tournament. If the reward is more desirable, everyone grinds more, thus more potential points in the pool, and the possibility of more easily beaten teams at higher point placements.
I'm fielding teams of level 85 2*s, and just recently got a 3* to over 100. Still, with that roster I've been able to regularly top 25, and often top 10 (have hit 2nd once or twice, but never 1st, but I'm never gunning for it, so that's fine by me). 7-800 is usually achievable, but 900 is where I need to boost if I want to win consistently.

In theory if you get +25 from someone then they lost 25. This is reduced at lower rating, but is still in effect even in the 900s. That said by the time you hit 900 it'd be like someone get 25 points off you and you lost 23 points. It's reduced but hardly enough to stop the bleeding if you're being hit on multiple times. 900 is about where the reduction in point from losses is almost 0 and typically where people have a hard time passing.

wade66

This happened to me on a smaller scale as well. I only have a 1* team to work with and at around 550 points I was getting nothing but maxxed out 2* teams, and a mixture of maxxed 2* and varying 3* teams making it impossible for me to break 600.

Made me wonder why they don't have a restricted style tournament, 1 for 1 * roster, one for 2* and one for all, with the prizes being appropriate for the tier so those of use who don't have level 80+ teams don't get slammed by them.

HairyDave

Yeah I'm usually struggling to maintain 700. I can get there without too much hassle but then I'm a juicy target and I'm back below 600 before I know what's happened.

Army of One was actually the first time I hit the 3* star wall - got to about 730 or so and then there were literally no options that weren't maxed out Punisher/CMags/Spidey teams. I stopped trying and just waited for the inevitable retaliations....

Unknown

While before it was artificially there, and avoided via tanking, I think they did something to more strongly bra let players in a way that now tanking means nothing. I don't think there is as heavy a dependence on mmr anymore. Plus side lvling your characters actually means something now. A lvl 141 is a noticeable help vs a 100 now, you won't really find ppl with lvl 85s in the 1000+ range anymore, and there are seemingly walls where the enemies change from mid lvled characters to maxed, to 3***, to maxed 3*** (roughly). Downside, its going to be harder to place well from the onset unless you have a good team. No sweeping into first on a wave of the corpses of lvl 50 Im and m. Storms..

Unknown

soenottelling wrote:

While before it was artificially there, and avoided via tanking, I think they did something to more strongly bra let players in a way that now tanking means nothing. I don't think there is as heavy a dependence on mmr anymore. Plus side lvling your characters actually means something now. A lvl 141 is a noticeable help vs a 100 now, you won't really find ppl with lvl 85s in the 1000+ range anymore, and there are seemingly walls where the enemies change from mid lvled characters to maxed, to 3***, to maxed 3*** (roughly). Downside, its going to be harder to place well from the onset unless you have a good team. No sweeping into first on a wave of the corpses of lvl 50 Im and m. Storms..

It seems to me rather than restricting you to the same 5 crazies they simply opened up a much bigger variety of opponents. To the guys running level 141 killer machines you really don't even care if your opponet is level 85 or 1 since they're just roadkills. Maybe tanking makes it slightly easier but you really shouldn't have problem beating up a mid range player and at the top you still have your crazies as always. People with weak rosters can still climb, just be careful of the crazies and you may need to shield more. I think it's a reasonable compromise as people with weaker rosters should have a harder (but not impossible) time of winning.

DrNitroman

I don't know what the devs have changed but I definitely felt a change during GSBW tourney.
I ran a 141 patch/100+Pun/low-levelGSBW. So not a maxed team but still strong. Before entering tournament, made a few taking in LR (but not much than usual)

During tournament I was paired with teams way weaker than usual: maxed 1* or mid-level 2*!! I fought my way up to 500-600 pts as if it were seed teams. Then, near 500-600, abruptely, I only saw teams of maxed 141 3*! No transition. Just went from 'tutorial' difficulty to 'hardcore' difficulty, avoiding 'normal' mode

Unknown

Same, running into maxed 141 teams at around 700 points in the Doctor event, having a really difficult time maintaining my top 25 rank currently, thinking my poor Doom/CStorm/Thor roster may end up dropping tons in the next few hours while I wait for my team to heal.

Does anyone know if losses in the Hunt event (which I don't care for at this point) affect MMR? I may just end up tanking in that event in these last few hours to try and game the Doctor event better.

Unknown

mvzk27 wrote:

Same, running into maxed 141 teams at around 700 points in the Doctor event, having a really difficult time maintaining my top 25 rank currently, thinking my poor Doom/CStorm/Thor roster may end up dropping tons in the next few hours while I wait for my team to heal.

Does anyone know if losses in the Hunt event (which I don't care for at this point) affect MMR? I may just end up tanking in that event in these last few hours to try and game the Doctor event better.

PVP and PVE performances are calculated separately, as far as I know.

Unknown

700??? Ha, I can barely get to 300 without major annoyance. My highest is a 128 hood and 89 Doom. Rest are the usual 85 **. I am constantly seeing teams with no less than 1 maxed 3* and it's sucking any enjoyment from pvp for me. I still haven't found the same fun I had when I first played prologue, I feel like I have Stockholm syndrome. I keep thinking it will get better but it never does.

JamieMadrox

My wall is in the 500-550 range, but I'm running a lvl 93 LCap (need 2/1/1), lvl 77 2*Thor (need 0/1/0), and either a lvl 72 CStorm (max covers) or lvl 45 OBW (need 0/1/5).

user311

These last couple events Doom and GSBW, I have done pretty well because I had generally high levels of those two characters. Its gets annoying and scary though when my other potential team members are maxed **s. Everyone else has the same maxed **s. So it could have been a situation where I win they win back and forth. But I dunno for some reason just about everyone I fought had a level 23 Doom/GSBW. I know that its possible to win with just a couple **s if the main character falls (and they try with the lvl 23 main) but I dont know why people would leave themselves open for a loss. I found that once I went to a team of ***s I started getting attacked less and I was able to move up better. But then at about 700 I start seeing all the Patches and I just cannot compete with those. If they have significantly higher score I may boost and attack - hoping to pull them into a retalition war which is fun.

Unknown

I see the same thing, and it's really frustrating. It's not just that all of the level 85s disappear; even worse, I literally see the same 5-10 141 teams. I've literally skipped fifty times in one 5-minute stretch, and seen the same 10 players over and over again, without any variation. And it's not simply that there are no 85 teams at that level. If that were true, we should continue seeing the 85 teams that we saw when we were lower, but they would simply be worth fewer points.

With two million accounts (and presumably hundreds of thousands of people competing in each PvP event), it seems really odd to me that the same teams would show up again and again...especially when it should be obvious from an objective standpoint that these teams are far better than mine.

Unknown

prymet1me wrote:

700??? Ha, I can barely get to 300 without major annoyance. My highest is a 128 hood and 89 Doom. Rest are the usual 85 **. I am constantly seeing teams with no less than 1 maxed 3* and it's sucking any enjoyment from pvp for me. I still haven't found the same fun I had when I first played prologue, I feel like I have Stockholm syndrome. I keep thinking it will get better but it never does.

Which explains your Alliance performance. tsk tsk.

I kid, I kid!

Unknown

bahukma wrote:

prymet1me wrote:

700??? Ha, I can barely get to 300 without major annoyance. My highest is a 128 hood and 89 Doom. Rest are the usual 85 **. I am constantly seeing teams with no less than 1 maxed 3* and it's sucking any enjoyment from pvp for me. I still haven't found the same fun I had when I first played prologue, I feel like I have Stockholm syndrome. I keep thinking it will get better but it never does.

Which explains your Alliance performance. tsk tsk.

I kid, I kid!

Lol, man I was throwing down in that terrible hunt pve. ..then the scaling came.

Unknown

Warrition wrote:

I see the same thing, and it's really frustrating. It's not just that all of the level 85s disappear; even worse, I literally see the same 5-10 141 teams. I've literally skipped fifty times in one 5-minute stretch, and seen the same 10 players over and over again, without any variation. And it's not simply that there are no 85 teams at that level. If that were true, we should continue seeing the 85 teams that we saw when we were lower, but they would simply be worth fewer points.

With two million accounts (and presumably hundreds of thousands of people competing in each PvP event), it seems really odd to me that the same teams would show up again and again...especially when it should be obvious from an objective standpoint that these teams are far better than mine.

I did some low-level testing on PvP rating and reached a definitive conclusion that is easily duplicable by anyone.

There are filters now being used to sort PvP opponents for players. With a low MMR from tanking, these filtering thresholds are easy to see. When a player crosses a filtering threshold, all teams that the system categorizes from the previous MMR difficulty category simply vanish from being possible opponents, even ones lined up in your queue. The only exception is that you get to keep the ones already loaded up on the other nodes that you currently see.

The first filtering threshold is at 400 points, where all 1* teams are removed as possible opponents.

Rising my way up the ladder, fighting level 10 teams at a time, the game seemed to throw endless waves of "seed-like" teams to me. No big deal, easy ISO. The moment I crossed 400, WHAM. The next node had two 2** 85s. Cleared out the other two easy nodes, and they were also replaced with two 85 2**s + Falcon as well. I had an interesting idea about this theory. I broke out the Whimsical Task Force and proceeded to retreat from 425 back down to below to 400. First retreat took me to 410ish. Replacement node still showed two 85 2**s. Retreated a second time to 397. Bingo! The next node went right back to level 15-20s. I skipped the opponents of the other two nodes, which resulted in them also being placed again by newbie-level opponents. Cleared one node to rise over 400, and back to 85s the nodes went.

I also believe that there is another filtering threshold around 700 as well, which only shows either 3*** rosters or 2** rosters that have also broken 700 points. More data is needed to conclusively prove that point though.

This could also be possibly perceived as an anti-tanking measure as well. With a high enough rated team at a low event score, in a low difficulty-filter range, a tank team might simply be now invisible to others as the filtering system may simply exclude showing the tank team to others. Performing a "Ghast" maneuver to at least a moderate degree might be the only real way to passively tank an event now. (Note: Active tanking through retreating still works just fine, although limited by the filtering system restricting viewable opponents.)