Koth? Seriously?

RhysMarkov

So 4 out 5 of my past matches in Training Grounds has been Koth... Is this a resurgence of the Koth/Easy Button meta, or did it never really go away?

I get his appeal, don't get me wrong, the red-deck-wins mentality is pretty persuasive, even if I don't subscribe to it. But c'mon, when 80% of your matches are wipes because he still pulls that first-turn hard-cast Olivia/Decimator/Ulrich ****, there's something inherently unbalanced.

Also, I get the whole "mono-red supercharge but **** for other colors" gimmick (and it -is- a gimmick). I've heard the arguments about how, if you don't get a good chunk of red on the board he's basically useless.  I even remember the one nerf to his red mana pulls from matches. 

There's a reason why none of the other mono-colored planes walkers have the same gimmick. Even the devs have to have realized how much they messed up with him.

And there you have it lol... took me less than 2 days back to find something to complain about. 

C'est la vie I suppose

Thuran

Easy answer there; Koth is fast and consistent.

TG does not care about how you win, so the appeal of koth is that you can get those 4 games out of the way as fast as possible, and then move on to play real matches in the events. Since you get matched against the other decks that people are running, if everyone is running koth, you get to face Koth.

There is no reason whatsoever to run a blue or green strategy, since they take longer time. You don't really want to run the cycling decks since you are just trying to get 4 games done as fast as possible, and so like the old QB people use the decks that are as fast as possible, which just so happens to be Koth. 

Sorin81

I own Koth but I don't play him very much. Just got him to plug a red node with something other than my Chandra 1. He's not fun to play with.
I've always liked meticulous decks. Decks that take time to set up, and require strategy and luck to pull off. Jace 2, Gideon 2 and Sorin are great for that. I've had a fair amount of luck using Sorin to draw out a match against Koth long enough to guarantee victory.

mournfen

I only use Koth in TG and red node win in 5 or less turns. The game as a whole is in a decent place now. Do not let this be what you judge you comeback on. Standard is actually a sigh of relief. Sure we generally play the same deck, but with few exceptions, you play event oriented decks. So they are always beatable, even to budget players.

Koth now and always ( barring a major nerf) is a flagship PWs; it's all about look at my awesome red/colorless mythic collection. As Thuran said TG is about getting 4 wins quickly

madwren

Yeah, it's the nature of the beast. While there are people in there testing decks, those who are just putting in 4 games to get their daily crystals want it done as fast as possible.

This is the downside to the "you are only matched against event decks" system--at least in QB you had a chance of running into other planeswalkers. In TG, though, when probably 75% of the decks are Koth or Nahiri, it's pretty one-dimensional.

Dsagent

Playing against Koth is a pain but I found that Hazoret the Fervent with vigilance and flying makes the AI a joke since they waste all their removal spells on this thing. Then the vigilance takes out the creatures. 

Weak against blue decks who use bounce though.

RhysMarkov

I think my issue with Koth is that I don't see much creativity in the builds for him, and he doesn't encourage creativity, due to his red ramp.  Magic (PQ or paper) has always, at least to me, been a strategy game. There's no strategy involved in running Koth. 

That may also touch on an issue with Training Grounds. What about it indicates "training" when the purpose is to burn people down as fast as possible to get the highly limited rewards?

Tempus

I don't see an issue that one PW is specialized.  IMO he's somewhat useless outside TG.  I mostly use Nahiri/Sorin Zoo to knock out dailies, but Koth is a fun change up.

Firinmahlazer

My answer for Koth in TG has been heavy conversion green. Usually blocks him from getting too many red matches. Forcing him to 3 mana and pulling cascades out from underneath him has been a fairly consistent strategy. 

madwren

RhysMarkov said:

I think my issue with Koth is that I don't see much creativity in the builds for him, and he doesn't encourage creativity, due to his red ramp.  Magic (PQ or paper) has always, at least to me, been a strategy game. There's no strategy involved in running Koth. 

That may also touch on an issue with Training Grounds. What about it indicates "training" when the purpose is to burn people down as fast as possible to get the highly limited rewards?

Red throwing creatures at people is a viable MTG strategy, though. It's just that instead of overwhelming you with cheap creatures in a Red Deck Wins / Sligh / Deadguy Red manner (that's Nahiri's niche, I'd say), Koth has scaled it upwards.

You're very right about TG, though. It fails at its intentions, but that's only if you believe that their intentions were to create a viable training ground. It wasn't. Their intention was to limit rewards by getting rid of QB, and to them, it's a success. 

Ohboy

Actually if you're winning more than 50% of your matches in training grounds, the argument should be that training grounds is not providing sufficient challenge to meet it's purpose. 

This talk about how hard it is to win every game in training grounds being contrary to it's purpose is plain nonsense. 

Also, koth isn't the best in either category discussed here, speed or consistency. In fact he's downright inconsistent. There's a reason a lot of people don't use him in events when it matters. 

Tilwin90

I admit I use Koth to smash through the daily training grounds for quick wins and that's it. He's fast, so I don't have to go through the boring slowfest of 4 grindy matches that grant me 15 crystals (but it's a necessary evil).
I try to keep the deck standard... occasionally I sneak in an Avacyn's Madness or Fevered Visions to speed things up. But red had some pretty messed up creatures in standard anyway so no need for Olivia, Decimator, Ulrich thingie.

RhysMarkov

I may have to retract a bit of my hate on Koth (only a bit though lol) as I forgot that my one Nissa deck can beat him consistently. I just used it for TG, and I went 4/4 against 4 Koth decks that were all running the Olivia/Ulrich/Decimator spread. Granted, I had to dig myself out at 10 life in one game, but still.

I'd like to reiterate that I get the appeal of Koth on the speed, power and the general idea of him doing what he does best. If that's how you want to play, do it up. I'd just rather not play against the same deck over and over and over etc...

Monkeynutts

Yeah i play Koth for the 4 games. Use all the good cards to win quick and get out.
Ive old ever not playes Koth like 5 times in 80 odd games.
But usually when u arwnt playing against him ur playing Hixus Prison garbage so u just quit out anyways. As people said its not worth the 10 minute grindy game for the prize u get.

They could have made this Event SO much better with a little more thought.

Example being change the type of games each day by restricting sets allowed, planeswalkers allowed, have it being 8 or 10 games. Making the prize runes and getting the 15 gems at half way and maybe 2/3 jewels on the last game.

Or as i mentioned before ages ago on the old forums; have a randomised secondary objective that offers rune, gems or jewels on its completion depending on what game u r on and that then defines the difficulty. This will force people not to put in there most quick and powerful stuff maybe and prompt different deck strategies.

shteev

Firinmahlazer said:

My answer for Koth in TG has been heavy conversion green. Usually blocks him from getting too many red matches. Forcing him to 3 mana and pulling cascades out from underneath him has been a fairly consistent strategy. 

Generally I find that too much gem conversion allows new red matches to drop in. I like my board to stay fairly static against Koth so I can kill the few red matches that appear myself.

Of course, if by heavy green conversion you mean Rishkar's Expertise and Shefet Monitor and just completely outclass him with OP cards, then yes, that works too

hawkyh1

my impression of koth is his style of play is reckless.
it's all or nothing. it's a nasty match up if you are
facing koth decks in events where every ribbon
counts. losing to a better deck is nothing new. it's
when you lose to chance deck that feels like it keeps
on rolling 6's that make players unhappy. his 1st
ability encourages this feeling as it's priced completely
wrong. what would players think if I suggested nissa1's
3rd ability to be priced at 6 loyalty? (and she only gets
+3 for each green match)

HH

RhysMarkov

My Nissa1 is what I've been using to beat him consistently actually. Oblivion Sower and Ulvenwald Hydra along with Corrupted Grafstone and Lumbering Isle (the blue/green dual land that can give hexproof to something for a turn) do wonders for mana fixing, and Scour From Existence for removal and removing red from the board helps too

Most games vs. Koth with this deck, there might be 2 red gems on the board at any given moment, and the only time there are more is right after a series of cascades.

gruntface

With TG not carrying win % or anything worth chasing past 4 wins, speed is the most viable strategy for most.

From time to time, I do find TG moderately useful for stress testing a new deck but my mindset for TG is as quick as possible. Losing games matters not at all and if there is a particularly annoying lockdown deck in there and I'm not trying a new one myself, I'll quit out and go again. No harm, no foul.

We have just been programmed to expect to win 90%+ in QB and think any loss is awful, but it really doesn't matter (and tbh, never really did) in this type of 'event'.

For real training I wouldn't mind an additional pure 'runes per win' environment for Standard decks. No progression, just, say, 150-200 runes per win. A little more incentive to play beyond 4 games, more useful testing for Standard PVP but no meta-breaking rewards. 

Firinmahlazer

shteev said:

Firinmahlazer said:

My answer for Koth in TG has been heavy conversion green. Usually blocks him from getting too many red matches. Forcing him to 3 mana and pulling cascades out from underneath him has been a fairly consistent strategy. 

Generally I find that too much gem conversion allows new red matches to drop in. I like my board to stay fairly static against Koth so I can kill the few red matches that appear myself.

Of course, if by heavy green conversion you mean Rishkar's Expertise and Shefet Monitor and just completely outclass him with OP cards, then yes, that works too

No Rishkar for me but believe it or not Nissa 1 w/ Nissa's Pilgrimage, Fertile Thicket, Channeler Initiate, and Shefet Monitor and fill in the gaps from there. It's no Platinum deck but it gets me by

Phillmoore

Training grounds doesn't work.  At least in quick battle you tried out all your decks.  Much more variety seen 

Sirchombli

Is koth really this big of a menace? I've almost always felt he was overrated. Since he was the first fancy walker I scooped up, I've gotten a lot of games in with him. He's not all that amazing, he's just really splashy. Sure the Olivia, ulrich, pig thing is rough to deal with, but they're chained to the top of their library for the rest of the game and all you have to do to beat that start is play out a couple removal spells. You get a lot of weird brews from both players, too. Building a strong koth deck isn't quite as simple as stuffing a bunch of big, dumb animals into your deck and pushing start. I think that you just have to build your decks with him in mind. Walkers like ob nix and jace 2 shouldn't have problems with him at all. 

Training grounds is definitely a little bootleg, but that's why people play koth. They just want to get it over with. If you ever come across one of my decks, there's a 90% chance it won't be koth. So enjoy the free win. My decks are all weird brews. I don't know how well the ai pilots them, but even I have a hard time sometimes. I just know that if it can't beat koth, it's probably not very good and I tweak it