Ob vs Liliana Last Hope (in general: order to save up for other PWs)

Eyris6

Fairly new player here. I've been saving up crystals intending to purchase Ob Nixilis when he became available, due to: base Liliana seems like one of the weaker base PWs; Black is a fun color; Ob seems flexible enough to either just run a general deck with his abilities for control and draw, or to run the creature-less draw-to-kill deck once appropriate cards are obtained. But now I see that Liliana Last Hope is in the coming soon list, so I'm wondering if I should wait for her as my Black replacement instead. There seems to be enough Zombie support in Origins that if the current Standard block has any zombies at all, she should continue to be viable (i.e. not block-tied like the energize PWs). Thoughts on which is better? Is it different for a player with less access to high-end cards?

In general, it seems like the priority order for picking up new PWs should be: Black (Ob or a better Liliana), then Blue or Green (obviously Kiora is great and solves those 2 together, although both base Jace and Nissa seem OK-ish), then finally Red or White (Koth is tempting, for example, but base Chandra seems good enough to skip him for now, and base Gideon likewise). Is this roughly right?

morgue427

lilli 2 from what i can see will struggle in the new block honestly she is best with the cards that cant be used generally in pvp and still has a hard time dealing with flyers. ob is better i think but havent really tried him with the new block of cards but creatureless will be harder mostly because there is a serious lack of cheap kill spells, but if you can rush to the final ability the cycling mechanic will finish the opponent quickly.

Rogan_Josh

Lilli 2 is probably the better choice. her colour matches are way better and her first ability works especially well with the Embalm mechanic. There are enough zombies in the new set to use her second ability as well (remember embalmed tokens come back as zombies). 

Ob is a little on the down turn i suspect currently, as a lot of his priority cards are from non-standard sets. Saying that i don't know if he's being run in the new standard and there might be some new deck or so I haven't seen yet. 

All in all, Lilli 2 is the better PW but it generally comes down to the cards you own. 

Steeme

L2 is very useful in the current block.  I run 4 zombies in Trial of Ambition and the fact that they can be buffed +4/+4 by her second ability comes in very handy considering everything is enraged these days.  Otherwise the zombies are kinda weak on their own (decent triggers, just weak attack/defense for their cost).  Her mana gain and first ability are what put her ahead though.

I'm going to add a caveat: I find that mono black is a dangerous setup right now in PvP.  Since disable mechanics are paramount in this block, I find the complete absence of support removal can leave you trying to manually knock supports off the board which is a tedious affair (if you can manage it anyways).

I figured some indirect damage was necessary, so there's the new support which heals 5 and damages the opponent 5 whenever you cycle cards.... except I don't see many cards to cycle in mono black.

My suggestion is to be careful bringing a deck that has no answer to disable mechanics to PvP.

Also, in regards to the other colours:

1. Avoid mono green

2. Koth is a beast for aggro setups and is easy to level up

3. Kiora is a must-have due to her incredible versatility (and also covers the Green node if necessary)

Dologan

Rogan Josh said:

Lilli 2 is probably the better choice. her colour matches are way better and her first ability works especially well with the Embalm mechanic. There are enough zombies in the new set to use her second ability as well (remember embalmed tokens come back as zombies). 

Ob is a little on the down turn i suspect currently, as a lot of his priority cards are from non-standard sets. Saying that i don't know if he's being run in the new standard and there might be some new deck or so I haven't seen yet. 

All in all, Lilli 2 is the better PW but it generally comes down to the cards you own. 

Except that there are no embalm creatures in black (so far, at least), so you clearly you don't really know what you're talking about. Dread Wanderer is probably the closest thing to it, but that's a single rare card.

Ob has definitely lost power under standard rules, with many mana, draw and destroy cards being ruled out, but is still arguably the more versatile choice. However, with his poor mana, I would say him and Lili2 are more or less tied in terms of usefulness under standard. In general, though, mono-black has suffered quite a bit, so the current king of black is definitely Tezz2. 

I would personally skip black for now and get Kiora. Green/Blue is a very strong combination and her abilities are timeless, so she'll stay useful for a long time to come.

madwren

I'll stump a bit for my favorite planeswalker.

Ob gives you all-important access to a creatureless win condition, which helps with numerous objectives in both PVP and PVE.  He also has three relevant and useful abilities and isn't tied to specific tribals for effectiveness. He's the top of the line for black planeswalkers.

Creatureless is not harder now.  Ob lost his trio of 5-mana rare spells, but has a 7 (Final Reward), and two 8's (Unholy Hunger, Trial of Ambition), only one of which is rare--and very importantly, in an environment that has slowed down considerably, the extra mana cost isn't even noticeable. When everyone is slower and creatures are weaker, turns out that you don't need to be dropping 5-mana removal bombs every turn.

Sorin81

I would tell you to grab Liliana 2 but honestly my Liliana 1 handles my zombie deck so much better. If you are just needing a black walker immediately and you don't have L1 I'd go ahead and get her and wait for Liliana 3. Just my personal bias towards Liliana and black in general I will own all versions of her.

Rogan_Josh

Dologan said:

Rogan Josh said:

Lilli 2 is probably the better choice. her colour matches are way better and her first ability works especially well with the Embalm mechanic. There are enough zombies in the new set to use her second ability as well (remember embalmed tokens come back as zombies). 

Ob is a little on the down turn i suspect currently, as a lot of his priority cards are from non-standard sets. Saying that i don't know if he's being run in the new standard and there might be some new deck or so I haven't seen yet. 

All in all, Lilli 2 is the better PW but it generally comes down to the cards you own. 

Except that there are no embalm creatures in black (so far, at least), so you clearly you don't really know what you're talking about. 

What a charming personality you have.

But you're totally right, black hasn't got a single Embalm creature, my bad. I'm genuinely surprised at that. 

@madwren post above kinda sums it up then. Lilli2's first ability is still useful but it's a coin toss. Personally i'd go for the +5/+4 over the loyalty but I can see how Ob's loyalty is more useful for newer players. 

madwren

Rogan Josh said:

Dologan said:

Rogan Josh said:

Lilli 2 is probably the better choice. her colour matches are way better and her first ability works especially well with the Embalm mechanic. There are enough zombies in the new set to use her second ability as well (remember embalmed tokens come back as zombies). 

Ob is a little on the down turn i suspect currently, as a lot of his priority cards are from non-standard sets. Saying that i don't know if he's being run in the new standard and there might be some new deck or so I haven't seen yet. 

All in all, Lilli 2 is the better PW but it generally comes down to the cards you own. 

Except that there are no embalm creatures in black (so far, at least), so you clearly you don't really know what you're talking about. 

What a charming personality you have.

But you're totally right, black hasn't got a single Embalm creature, my bad. I'm genuinely surprised at that. 

@madwren post above kinda sums it up then. Lilli2's first ability is still useful but it's a coin toss. Personally i'd go for the +5/+4 over the loyalty but I can see how Ob's loyalty is more useful for newer players. 

Don't get me wrong, I like L2, but I can do more with Ob across all events/objectives.  He's unique in his flexibility and alternate/creatureless win condition (T2's is harder to set up in Standard sans Tamiyo's Journal, C2's is victim to her poor overall design).

morgue427

if you have or get hearld of anguish he works excellent in ob denies them a card each turn only one creature  the spell for cycling that gives you 3 2/2 zombies a gold cycling land black/blue and return creatures to your hand cycling card help make him work his last ability well. plus he has a card draw  that you can punish the other player while you force them to draw a card plus the one from origin. not bad but i do have to try him out in a challenge.

shteev

madwren said:

I'll stump a bit for my favorite planeswalker.

Ob gives you all-important access to a creatureless win condition, which helps with numerous objectives in both PVP and PVE.  He also has three relevant and useful abilities and isn't tied to specific tribals for effectiveness. He's the top of the line for black planeswalkers.

He's top of the line for *mono-black* planeswalkers, certainly.

If you have limited resources, I don't think, in the long run, you'll be wanting both Ob and Lilly 2.

morgue427

very true i have both and use one or the other usually ob but as someone said tezz2 is the go to for this block it seems, honestly it seems if you dont have a dual color you are handicapped because the costs are more than alot of single pws can handle reliably

Firinmahlazer

My vote is for Ob. I don't have Lil 2 nor do I feel like I'm losing out not having her. Ob 3rd ability is pretty much a win condition and I have no issues using him in standard. His second ability is a great "In Case of Emergency" button too. Edit* I'll add too that Ob was my first non-origins PW and he helped me a ton and is still my only non-origins black PW in gold. 

wereotter

Rogan Josh said:

Dologan said:

Rogan Josh said:

Lilli 2 is probably the better choice. her colour matches are way better and her first ability works especially well with the Embalm mechanic. There are enough zombies in the new set to use her second ability as well (remember embalmed tokens come back as zombies). 

Ob is a little on the down turn i suspect currently, as a lot of his priority cards are from non-standard sets. Saying that i don't know if he's being run in the new standard and there might be some new deck or so I haven't seen yet. 

All in all, Lilli 2 is the better PW but it generally comes down to the cards you own. 

Except that there are no embalm creatures in black (so far, at least), so you clearly you don't really know what you're talking about. 

What a charming personality you have.

But you're totally right, black hasn't got a single Embalm creature, my bad. I'm genuinely surprised at that. 

@madwren post above kinda sums it up then. Lilli2's first ability is still useful but it's a coin toss. Personally i'd go for the +5/+4 over the loyalty but I can see how Ob's loyalty is more useful for newer players. 

It's a lore thing. Blue, green, red, and white creatures that are embalmed after death have a purpose in society and contribute to the order of things, thus becoming white. They are honored in death.

Black zombies are the corpses of those cast out of society into the wastes. All people rise from death on Amonkhet, but those who die in the wastes have no purpose and reanimate into more traditional zombies.

The lack of black embalm was intentional to drive that point home. 

Gilesclone

Lilliana 2 is all about getting a threat down and making it stick.  Ob Nilixis has the killer level 3 but can be more flexible.  It depends on your play style.  

Rogan_Josh

wereotter said:

It's a lore thing. Blue, green, red, and white creatures that are embalmed after death have a purpose in society and contribute to the order of things, thus becoming white. They are honored in death.

Black zombies are the corpses of those cast out of society into the wastes. All people rise from death on Amonkhet, but those who die in the wastes have no purpose and reanimate into more traditional zombies.

The lack of black embalm was intentional to drive that point home. 

that's pretty damn cool if you ask me. 

morgue427

just tried my ob with the new standard cards in training ground the wilds so to speak did ok lost to  some of the monsters that you cant play in standard anymore, works not a 100% deck but can still be darn tough with very few gold or mythics, hope this helps you, also look see what kind of cards you have if you have more zombies then lilli2 may be better choice for you as long as you can use them in standard if not ob for the help of it being less specialized. hope this helps you figure out who to get.

Twee

I just got ob, and he's a lot of fun.  The best part is all of his abilities are useful, almost all of the time.

babar3355

100% buy Ob over L2... in fact you never have to buy L2... She is trumped by many other black and dual colored walkers.  She is gimmicky at best.

Ob on the other hand is a terrific walker that has 3 excellent skills.  A draw skill that is very useful, a kill spell that is very useful, and an ult that is one of the most fun and unique in the game.  It really allows you to try a different and fresh play style.  Go with Ob, you will be glad you did!

wereotter

babar3355 said:

100% buy Ob over L2... in fact you never have to buy L2... She is trumped by many other black and dual colored walkers.  She is gimmicky at best.

Ob on the other hand is a terrific walker that has 3 excellent skills.  A draw skill that is very useful, a kill spell that is very useful, and an ult that is one of the most fun and unique in the game.  It really allows you to try a different and fresh play style.  Go with Ob, you will be glad you did!

Ob Nixilis is really only great if you have the cards for him, as can be said for many planeswalkers. Additionally, his last ability is kind of mediocre until you have him at level 60. If you can't do both those things, then he's not as great. Liliana 2 is actually one of my more encountered planeswalkers in quick battle and was a top one in PvP events prior to the implementation of standard, and she is really good at the "take x or less damage" objectives, but also requires you to have the right cards to make it work.

If you have a lot of runes to pump into Ob Nixilis, and a large number of kill and discard spells, go with him.

If you have Prized Amalgam, Oath of Liliana, Graf Harvest, then Liliana 2 is great for legacy events, however as far as zombies as a tribe in general go, the next Liliana may offer better synergy than this one does. Remains to be seen. (pun intended)

Lightcell

Ob is kind of broken right now with Cycle. There is a common or uncommon support that when you cycle a card your opponent loses 5 life and you gain 5 life. With his ultimate that does 13 damage, 26 if it is on 2x damage. Plus a lot of creatures and spells trigger from cycling.