New scaling in Unstable ISO-8 may be the worst thing this game has ever done

KC_Hammer

Crnch73 said:

KC_Hammer said:

I am currently in the middle of the 3*  to 4* transition and I was able to get full progression in SCL8 just fine, but now am suddenly not able to get the same level of rewards because I can't compete with level 400 enemies. I have most 3* and two 4* champs, and my only reasonable avenue to 4*s is through command points. I do not like this change, and will not renew my VIP if it stays.

 Again, just because you were able to unlock SCL8, it wasn't right of them to make it easy enough to compete for placement with people with multiple champed 5's. You might have been playing SCL8 and only seeing enemies at what? Level 250? They were also playing SCL8 and facing level 450 enemies? This was punishing people who had great rosters while also rewarding you, thus making roster "progress" pointless. If 2 people play for 2 hours a day, the better roster or better strategist deserves to win... period. I am sorry you are having to play to a lower amount of CP, but you were earning rewards that you shouldn't have been. This change is the most fair (even if unpopular) change I have seen for all players. It was unfairly tilted towards the lower rosters, now they fixed it... sure it stings but it was very unfair before.

Better rosters win more, simple as that. Their only misdeed was ever allowing for someone who is essentially a 3* player to ever play SCL8 in the first place, because now it feels like things were taken from you. In reality, you were being allowed entry to a club you really didn't belong being in. You were getting the best rewards... but you haven't earned that right yet because you haven't spent the time/money required to get the best roster. The highest SCL available should be gated behind roster strength, which it now is. Those people who can handle the harder nodes now get the best rewards... That is extremely fair. They either worked hard/long or paid a lot of money to get a great roster, they deserve to reap some sort of benefit from that in PVE.

You (and me as well) belonged in the minor leagues, they belonged in the majors. We were allowed to play with the big boys for a small amount of time, but we need to go back to where we belong.

How do I not deserve it? I earned that rank, I should be able to play at it. Is it fair that they were facing level 450 enemies? No, but there are better ways to fix the scaling than punish people who have earned that rank. I have no problem with the people with the best rosters getting more, but artificially pushing me back down is not fair either. Also, a 100 level jump between those 2 levels is ridiculous. SCL 7 is way too easy, SCL 8 was impossibly hard for me. 

Crnch73

KC_Hammer said:

How do I not deserve it? I earned that rank, I should be able to play at it. Is it fair that they were facing level 450 enemies? No, but there are better ways to fix the scaling than punish people who have earned that rank. I have no problem with the people with the best rosters getting more, but artificially pushing me back down is not fair either. Also, a 100 level jump between those 2 levels is ridiculous. SCL 7 is way too easy, SCL 8 was impossibly hard for me. 

  Please understand that I meant no (and continue to mean no) disrespect. What I was trying to say was, the developers opened up the top SCL to too low of a level. Meaning, 3 star rosters were able to compete at a SCL that they shouldn't have been. That's why I said you (and even myself) did not belong in the top SCL. The top SCL should have been hard enough that only the better rosters could compete there. The mistake was letting such a low shield ranking be the thing that allowed entry to SCL8 in the first place.

So the big problem was, they were letting many people get rewards that they shouldn't have been able to truly compete for. Consider it a bank error in your favor (to steal a quote from Monopoly)... in the past, you got a reward for doing no extra work. There was absolutely no reason for you to not play at the highest SCL, because you were able to still face opponents that were scaled to your roster strength. This meant that you were possibly able to get to max progression faster than someone with a better roster, due to an unfair tilt in your favor. Thus, you were sneaking awards away from higher rosters without doing any extra work. In fact, they probably had to do more work, both by facing harder opponents and by building a stronger roster.

Now, they fixed the bank error. They aren't making you give back the goodies, they are just saying it won't happen anymore. It feels like you had something taken away from you (glass half empty)... I am trying to help you see that you were given rewards that were above your pay grade for now, which should be looked back upon as a good thing... something that you can work towards to get again in the future (glass half full).

Magic

Also anybody with the rank clearance (and I will repeat - it should have been set much higher from the start) can still play there. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. You might even get the max progression out of it. You just can't be competitive for placement. If you are looking for that - you should fight with players your size. 

That's why along with this change they should limit the drop possibility for players (or take away 5* from lower scaling levels). I am sure they will look into it with the next test. 

I have enjoyed it a lot (after months of constant slaps in my face from the devs) and I already miss it in the next event.

KC_Hammer

I just disagree that I didn't deserve them to begin with. The devs decided that if i made SCL 8 then i can get that reward so i deserve it. If they increase the level requirement for SCL 8, then fine at that point I don't deserve the rewards from it.

The point of scaling is that it should remain a consistent challenge based on your roster. So it is not fair that they had to face harder opponents compared to their roster strength than i did. But if they have a similar level of challenge, and we both need the same resources to progress, why should we both not get the same reward? Their roster is better than mine, but if that means they face enemies that are harder, they are not necessarily working harder for it. Since from what I understand the scaling is messed up it means that it was harder then that is not the same thing.  

Crnch73

KC_Hammer said:

I just disagree that I didn't deserve them to begin with. The devs decided that if i made SCL 8 then i can get that reward so i deserve it. If they increase the level requirement for SCL 8, then fine at that point I don't deserve the rewards from it.

The point of scaling is that it should remain a consistent challenge based on your roster. So it is not fair that they had to face harder opponents compared to their roster strength than i did. But if they have a similar level of challenge, and we both need the same resources to progress, why should we both not get the same reward? Their roster is better than mine, but if that means they face enemies that are harder, they are not necessarily working harder for it. Since from what I understand the scaling is messed up it means that it was harder then that is not the same thing.  

Here is my take on it (and then I will probably bow out, I don't want to accidentally form an argument). I didn't want to insult you, I just couldn't think of a better term than "didn't deserve".

But let me refer back to my analogy of the bank error in your favor. Something was set up and executed improperly, I think we can all agree on that. Some people benefited from it, some were hurt by it. Now that the error has been fixed, the people who previously benefited feel cheated while the people who were hurt now feel vindicated. It is merely human nature. In my opinion, it's like you came into some money unexpectedly, got to live a good life for a few months, and now you are back to the life you had before. You feel cheated because you had a taste of what more money can bring. I look at it as: you now have a goal to shoot for! Work hard, and you will get back there soon!

However, I disagree that scaling should be used to to make a completely level playing field. If someone has half the 3's champed but nothing higher than that... they could conceivably be high enough to play SCL8. I have almost half the 4's champed. Let's say someone else has 5 champed 5*. Three people, all at very different stages. If all three of us have to spend 3 hours playing a single sub event, and compete for the same rewards, then what was the point of ever progressing past the 3* tier? This was why soft-capping happens, and it's wrong. If someone has spent lots of resources on this game, there NEEDS to be some sort of reward or reprieve! The reward of "well here are more character you can play with" is not really a reward. At some point, my level 300 roster should face level 250 opponents. The 5* person should see level 350 opponents, etc. If someone in the 3* tier wants to fight for the rewards that go to a 4 star roster... by all means let them. However, it will be harder for them to get those rewards. In most aspects of life (and gaming), if you want to try to get rewards that are above your pay-grade, everything becomes more difficult. The 'hard" setting on a video game usually has better rewards (and sometimes isn't even available until you beat the game on "normal") If scaling is a linear thing with no plateau or asymptote, then what is the point of it all? The higher players either deserve an easier time of it, or much better rewards. They may have put in 5 hours a day for 3 years. The person who has put in 2 hours a day for 10 months SHOULD find it harder, because they haven't earned as much. We all went through it, so should the rest of the player base.

The problem I have is, in my head I am hearing someone's voice saying "I don't care that you spent 3 years getting to where you are, I want to get there in one year. But I don't want to have to work any harder than you did or any harder than you continue to do!"

I doubt this is what you, yourself, are saying. It's just the vibe I get from the whole debate. I don't want you or any other player to feel cheated, but at the same time it felt unfair to people who have played longer or worked harder than you have. More time + more effort + possibly more money... that should equal better rewards or an easier in-game experience. People who put in less time/effort/money do not yet deserve them, and definitely not this fast... but it will come in time. We feel your pain, because we used to be there too. It's a rite of passage, no one should be able to skip it unless they pay a lot of money.

Khanwulf

KC_Hammer said:

I am currently in the middle of the 3*  to 4* transition and I was able to get full progression in SCL8 just fine, but now am suddenly not able to get the same level of rewards because I can't compete with level 400 enemies. I have most 3* and two 4* champs, and my only reasonable avenue to 4*s is through command points. I do not like this change, and will not renew my VIP if it stays.

Part of the problem is the 3-4 transition lasts a lifetime, and running SCL 7 or 8 more or less doubled your 4* rate, so it was essential. The rewards are currently aligned with the strength of the rosters expected to fight at the given SCL. In other words, your well-covered and leveled 4* roster at SCL7. Your maxchamped 4* roster and 5*s at SCL8. (Arguably 5*s should be in SCL 9 or 10... they're not there yet.)

Note: rewards are aligned with current rosters. Not where you're going with the roster. Not what you need to advance, but where you are currently. So they'll give you things you don't need, effectively. 

To be proper tools for advancement, SCL 5 (champed 3*) and 6 (maxchamped 3*) should provide tools for reaching 4* coverage, SCL 7 should assume you need to add to 4* champ levels, and SCL 8 should hand out more CP as a proxy for 5* rewards.

And yes, terrible implementation. They're losing players and money for this. Mine included.

--Khanwulf

mpqr7

I LOVE the scaling change. It's great to fight lv 3XX enemies instead of lv 4XX enemies!!! I needed this. I hope they keep it like that!!!

KC_Hammer

mpqr7 said:

I LOVE the scaling change. It's great to fight lv 3XX enemies instead of lv 4XX enemies!!! I needed this. I hope they keep it like that!!!

The problem is that this isn't scaling. Scaling would be adjusting it based on your roster. And what they need to do is get a better algorithm for determining enemy level based on your roster not have set levels.

Crnch73 said:

 We feel your pain, because we used to be there too. It's a rite of passage, no one should be able to skip it unless they pay a lot of money.

What you are saying here is that since theyade improvements to the game since you were at my level to say make it more fun and less painful, I don't deserve the current state. "When I was young we didn't have all these medical advances. You kids today don't deserve them. You should feel pain because I did."  

They made an improvement and you are assuming a its a mistake. They aren't changing the rewards, and their stated goal is to fix scaling for high level players. So obviously they don't think it's a mistake to allow people who reached SCL 8 to have those rewards. However this implementation screws me over. And the intent of my original comment was just to say that if it becomes permanent it will be enough to push me over the edge and stop giving them money.

Ducky

KC_Hammer said:

They aren't changing the rewards, and their stated goal is to fix scaling for high level players. So obviously they don't think it's a mistake to allow people who reached SCL 8 to have those rewards. However this implementation screws me over. And the intent of my original comment was just to say that if it becomes permanent it will be enough to push me over the edge and stop giving them money.

This is a massive assumption. For all we know part of the dev's motivation for these changes was to tighten the screws on the flow of covers into the economy. If less people can play in an SCL, less brackets form and thus less placement rewards that go out and less prog rewards at those levels. The devs are very finicky about their ingame economy and will do whatever they deem necessary to keep it in check.

KC_Hammer

Ducky said:

This is a massive assumption. For all we know part of the dev's motivation for these changes was to tighten the screws on the flow of covers into the economy. If less people can play in an SCL, less brackets form and thus less placement rewards that go out and less prog rewards at those levels. The devs are very finicky about their ingame economy and will do whatever they deem necessary to keep it in check.

This is a quote from their announcement of the change. "We've received lots of feedback from players about the difficulty of missions, especially concerns with enemy difficulty scaling with your roster. In the Unstable Iso-8 Story Event, we are experimenting with a new way to give everyone the opportunity to choose the challenge level of the opponents they face."  My only assumption is that they are telling the truth.

Crnch73

Crnch73 said:

 We feel your pain, because we used to be there too. It's a rite of passage, no one should be able to skip it unless they pay a lot of money.

What you are saying here is that since theyade improvements to the game since you were at my level to say make it more fun and less painful, I don't deserve the current state. "When I was young we didn't have all these medical advances. You kids today don't deserve them. You should feel pain because I did."  

They made an improvement and you are assuming a its a mistake. They aren't changing the rewards, and their stated goal is to fix scaling for high level players. So obviously they don't think it's a mistake to allow people who reached SCL 8 to have those rewards. However this implementation screws me over. And the intent of my original comment was just to say that if it becomes permanent it will be enough to push me over the edge and stop giving them money.

I'm sorry that is how my message sounded to you. I keep coming back to an analogy about money. If I worked for 20 years, and you worked for 1. We had similar education, similar jobs... I was just more experienced and had put in more work, so I had a higher position. If you suddenly got my salary, that would be unjust. If you got a senior level job before I did, that's unfair. 

But then you won the lottery. You now have more money than me. That's not unfair, but it also means that since you didn't do much to "earn" that money, your appreciation for it isn't as high either. You might lose it eventually, someone might snooker it from you. Not a great moment or feeling for anyone. But overall, you're complaining that your lesser amount of effort no longer brings you the same reward. And you're complaining to the people who have out worked you and have worked much longer. It falls on deaf ears. But... if you work hard and get to our level, maybe you'd appreciate what I'm trying to say. It was tough to get here, it was a little unnerving to watch people have such an easy time. Now, you might have to actually do what we all did, and you don't like it because it's harder than you used to experience. That's OK, but it's not an injustice... it's life.

Starfury

Crnch73 said:

You (and me as well) belonged in the minor leagues, they belonged in the majors. We were allowed to play with the big boys for a small amount of time, but we need to go back to where we belong.

If that's going to be the future, they better change rewards so the "minor leagues" start awarding prizes that allow people to progress to the major leagues.

One argument we always heard to defend vaulting was that you could get the 4* essential as a progression reward. Well, that's not happening if SCL8 is going to be 5* land and SCL 7 is supposed to be 4* land.

Crnch73 said:

That's OK, but it's not an injustice... it's life.

No, it's a game. The two things happen on a completely different timescale.


Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of fixed difficulty for SCL levels, but if happens like in this test, rosters who are pushed to a lower level and receive lower rewards have every reason to complain about that.

Ducky

KC_Hammer said:

Ducky said:

This is a massive assumption. For all we know part of the dev's motivation for these changes was to tighten the screws on the flow of covers into the economy. If less people can play in an SCL, less brackets form and thus less placement rewards that go out and less prog rewards at those levels. The devs are very finicky about their ingame economy and will do whatever they deem necessary to keep it in check.

This is a quote from their announcement of the change. "We've received lots of feedback from players about the difficulty of missions, especially concerns with enemy difficulty scaling with your roster. In the Unstable Iso-8 Story Event, we are experimenting with a new way to give everyone the opportunity to choose the challenge level of the opponents they face."  My only assumption is that they are telling the truth.

Notice I said part of their motivation. Undoubtedly a large part of the reason for the test was to fix scaling, but that doesn't mean that another reason they were prompted to do it was to straighten out the game's economy.

Neuromancer

Coldly, it is a simple rejiggering of the system. I often sent in feedback marveling about how leveling in modern games simply translates into BIG NUMBERS rather than a real change in game play. If I "level up," and my enemies match me, what's the point? Simply, people like big numbers. I found this a sound dev-test that ran parallel with this line of thought.

I too enjoyed the change, and already miss it like some above posters.

Note, it's possible to have nothing but 1*s and/or 2*s and play at SCL 8. I could also gut my roster of most characters, and my SCL won't change. That doesn't mean the dev's desire someone like this to continue to compete at such reward levels. What the devs really want may be both terrible and mysterious to us. They will change the game. If you dislike changes, yes, you may protest, but be prepared for opposition to counterpoint, and try not to take things personally.

I'm around the same tier and level as the OP. In the current system, I compete at SCL 8. I played the event in question at SCL 5... for Doom's time is precious to him, and the power of choice is likewise precious.

FranklynStreet

It's nice to see there's been some discussion since I posted here, and that there's a lot of supporters on both sides.

For all the people arguing "you've been playing for 3.5 years since game launch and don't deserve to be here, scrub," I have 2 things to say:

First, stop being an ****.  Unless you've been playing since game launch, I've been playing this game longer than you have.

Second, no one's saying that there shouldn't be a system to make the top of the game tougher for top ranked players with a healthy 5-star roster.  It absolutely should be able to accommodate those players, otherwise, what's the point of the game?

The problem is re-jiggering level 8 so that it actually penalizes players who've been there for many months, perhaps even years.  Game implementation should never punish players, particularly long-term players.  It should add more carrots to end-game when there aren't enough.  Period.

The required change to implementation is a simple one: a) add levels instead (preferably 9 and 10), and b) continue to make the requirements for level admission in-tune with the rewards offered and the scaling of the enemies.  It's really that simple.  If the game isn't accommodating players with robust rosters of champed 4*s and 5*s, the game needs to add those levels of gameplay-- not replace lower steps on a ladder with higher steps so that a section of the ladder ends up missing multiple rungs, crippling ascension, and alienating what is likely the majority of their customer base-- those in the middle difficulty area of the game.  It's potentially game-breaking, and certainly prohibitive towards any part of their player base playing at that level now or in the future.

In other words, don't have level 300-400 enemies when you only need to be Shield Rank 49 to access those levels.  If a player is fundamentally unable to complete most of a level, there's no reason for them to be able to access it yet.  And don't punish players who've been playing at a level for months/years already.  Which means it would also be problematic to suddenly have the gateway for level 8 jump from SR49 to 98, without any compensatory gameplay to bridge the gap.  Instead, build outwards & expand.  Put the carrot before the stick.  Determine what would be appropriate rewards/scaling for those champed 4* and 5* rosters, and ADD those appropriately gameplay-balanced levels, as well as any required bridge levels.

The rewards/difficulty need to be aligned and scaled with each other... that's just basic video game design.

SpringSoldier

Off-topic: is it possible to get scaled down during an event? Because I'm 1000% sure I registered at SCL8, but at some point, while my niece was playing, I ended up being at scl7 with 3 cp out of nowhere. Maybe there was another thread about this, but I didn't find it. Thanks!

KC_Hammer

Since it looks like this change is becoming permanent, I'm dropping my VIP. I'm just one person​ so I doubt it will matter

Magic

You will always have two sides with change like this. If this change is permanent I will start investing ISO in my 5* and I am sure I will enjoy the game much more than I enjoy now. To a level I might pay something for in the game - maybe (probably not, but no it's out of question). 

So far the clear time (4 clears) has lowered for me from 1 hour- 1 hour 15 minutes to roughly 45 minutes. With 5* in play it should drop to much more reasonable 30-35 minutes. That means I will be able to play more PvP or just won't feel the game is a chore anymore. Me gusta.

Without it I will keep working on 4* and soft-capping my 5* (not really soft-capping - I just don't have the iso to do anything with them when I am not seeing a benefit of moving to 5* land). 

granne

I've been playing in SCL 8 since I reached whichever SR I needed to gain access. The first time, it was mainly curiosity - I wanted to see how I would do with my solidly 3* roster. As it turned out, I made T50 with no more effort than I would have needed in SCL 7, so I kept on with 8 for the marginally better progression rewards.

I've always felt, though, that I was trespassing. And that sooner or later I'd have to drop back down.

Now that time has come, and I'm fine with it. Will it suck to lose out on SCL 8 rewards? Of course it will, but I have something to aim for now. I have 12 4* champs now, and will have another in a few days. I probably could have managed the scaling in 8 for the first test, but not the second. I'm not far away, though, and that's returned some incentive to my progression. I'm no longer champing and levelling characters just for the sake of it - it's with a view to getting back into 8.

broll

It should have been more clearly announced, that's on them.

However, SCL based scaling will be huge once people see the benefits of it and especially when we get SCLs 9 & 10 eventually.  It's far from the worst change, probably one of the best, certainly the best of 2017 (which isn't saying much with so many negatives this year)