The Death of the Solo Whale Player

Meto5000

Picture this: A month ago you really enjoyed MPQ and played it just about every day. You top 10'd in just about every event you participated in, but sometimes you'd take a break for a few days and some weekends because life. You have a decent sized disposable income and heck, you don't see anything wrong with spending $20-$50 here and there on a game you really enjoy. You've got max roster slots, and 3 max level 141s, and more than a few covers for both X-Force Wolverine and Invisible Woman that you're super proud of. You really like MPQ because you can zone out and just play your own way, not worrying about anybody but yourself. You've maybe logged into the forums once or twice when the game wouldn't load for you, but other than that you are not involved in the community and don't care to be.

Fast forward to today: You don't have any friends that play this game so you didn't bother joining an alliance right away. Once you noticed that you couldn't even get the third cover for brand new characters you tried joining a random public alliance. They didn't come close to being in the top 100 nor did you feel like talking a bunch with a bunch of internet strangers, so you left it. Now, you're still making the top 10 in events, but it's a lot harder. Your featured/required characters don't have all their covers. In the past, you used to spend money to buy covers for newer characters that you liked, but now since you can't reliably get the Alliance Only third cover you're left with only an option to buy tokens that MIGHT have the character you want, but more likely is just a bunch of 2* garbage. MPQ has become an uphill battle for you, and the only thing that's changed is the game. You feel like you're playing just as much as the people in the top tier Alliances but you just don't want to join up because it's not your style.

You start feeling that even though you've invested quite a bit of time and money into the game that it might be time to look for greener pastures.

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It seems to me that Alliances should have been about bringing the community closer together, but by tying all these rewards into it, you've just added a new level of competitiveness and forced people to sink huge chunks of time into the game day in and day out. I quit WoW because it started turning into a job and that was only 3 days a week. With a high level MPQ Alliance I am finding that to stay in the top 100 I'm having to invest at least an hour or two EVERY DAY to keep my position. I can't take days off, or weekends off, because it means my alliance might fall out of the top 100 and we'll lose a needed cover. I can't choose which events I want to play, I have to play ALL the events. A grindy event was fine when it was my own choice. Now we're forced to grind every event because if we don't we'll either get kicked from an alliance, or feel like we let people down. Frankly, I'm getting tired of it. I'm getting tired of keeping on top of my alliance making sure they play to get a base amount of points. I'm tired of the politics that can come up because of this. I'm super fracking competitive and so I play a game to win, but there's a point where I'm going to cut my losses and move on.

I spent hundreds of dollars on cosmetic items in Team Fortress 2 and the number one thing that I loved about it was that I could stop playing for a month, and when I got back, I was in the same exact position I was in when I left. In MPQ if I don't play for a WEEKEND I could miss out on a brand new character that makes it impossible to compete in the next event without spending money. I HATE that I feel like I'm being forced to spend money. I will spend money to have fun gladly, but if you're forcing it out of me just so I can play your game at a high level, well then screw you.

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There needs to be an in between for players that want to be competitive only some of the time. Or wants to competitively play a solo game without the rigmarole that comes with being in a top 100 Alliance. Or wants to join an Alliance with friends, but can't because they're competitive and their friends are all casual.

One idea I had was to have separate "Overall Top 100" brackets for people who are either not in an Alliance or not in a top 100 Alliance. The rewards for this entire bracket should be commensurate with the rewards people in the top 51-100 Alliance brackets are receiving, i.e., they should receive their darn third cover.

It's either that, or I guarantee, you're going to have burnout. I can't be the only one who feels this way.

Unknown

You need to add a "TL;DR - add a rewards bracket for non-alliance people". I think that's the gist of your suggestion.

Honestly though, as others have quoted in other threads, the article in VentureBeat says that D3 is going to focus on alliances and alliance play - that's where they believe their bread and butter for long-term players is going to be.

Unknown

If you're someone that isn't playing every day, you should already be used to not winning every prize and reward. As long as they rotate the prizes around, you will eventually get a chance to win that 'new shiny object' they dangle out there.

Winning a single cover of a character doesn't mean anything in this game. It's just a small step towards something better. Even winning 4-6 covers of that same character is insignificant. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

But yea, if you have the whale mentality of "I want that shiny object NOW", you could have some issues with how the alliances rewards are laid out. It's those kinds of impulses that people can't control that makes F2P gaming the thriving business it is today.

(PS. A true whale would have created his own alliance and bought all 20 slots by now. :wink)

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

Winning a single cover of a character doesn't mean anything in this game. It's just a small step towards something better. Even winning 4-6 covers of that same character is insignificant. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

I would argue that winning that first cover is not insignificant, given the whole "exclusive node" mechanic in PvE. But that's more just nitpicking since the real argument presented here is about the third cover. Which for a whale is probably a pretty big deal. It's the difference b/w a 5/5/0 and a 5/5/3 character.

Unknown

While I agree with the suggestion of an awards bracket for non-alliance people, a few points:

1. Your "whale" is hardly a "whale" at all. A whale is going to have an 0/0/5 Fury, spending $20-$50 here and there, while not chump change, isn't on the same level. A whale can just buy all the packs until they get one of each cover then just buy all the covers.

2. There aren't possibly that many people who would normally place well in all the tournaments, enough to get all 3 covers, and aren't in alliances now. The numbers just don't add up. Not to mention the money alone from alliance slots is probably more than they'd lose by losing every anti-alliance person who spends $20-50 here and there.

3. You want to only be competitive some of the time, but think that when you choose to be competitive you should be just as competitive as the players who are competitive all of the time. Alliances or not, most of your complaints about having to play all the time were still there before. You still needed the newest cover to do well and if you missed an event you were still screwed.

Colognoisseur

Riggy wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

Winning a single cover of a character doesn't mean anything in this game. It's just a small step towards something better. Even winning 4-6 covers of that same character is insignificant. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

I would argue that winning that first cover is not insignificant, given the whole "exclusive node" mechanic in PvE. But that's more just nitpicking since the real argument presented here is about the third cover. Which for a whale is probably a pretty big deal. It's the difference b/w a 5/5/0 and a 5/5/3 character.

Let me provide the counterpoint to the OP. I was also a Solo Whale Player and read the forums but never posted. I was happy being a lone wolf and playing my game. Then I saw the announcement for Alliances and the hint that there would be Alliance prizes. I immediately created a forum account and if you look, my first post is please someone take me into your alliance. Thankfully someone did, thanks LordWill. You know what I liked it not only do I like it I really like it. It adds another level of strategy beyond me, myself, and I. My team has been great and we have performed well enough to not miss out on any of the major awards. All games shift and the Solo Whale sometimes needs to swim with the other fishes to survive. I like it and because it has become more social for me I actually post a bit on the forums now instead of just reading.

Konman

Riggy wrote:

<snip>Honestly though, as others have quoted in other threads, the article in VentureBeat says that D3 is going to focus on alliances and alliance play - that's where they believe their bread and butter for long-term players is going to be.

That's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy though isn't it? D3 continues the alliance lovefest long enough, and the non-alliance solo players get discouraged and frustrated enough to leave, voila, all the long term players are alliance invested.

I sort of resemble the type player described in the OP, but I never thought of joining an alliance. We were told that alliances were to be a fun, cosmetic add-on to the game, but if that was ever the case, it certainly isn't now.

Unknown

Just because you're a loner or even anti-social doesn't mean you can't join an alliance. Michael Jordan is very demanding of his teammates and a lot of his teammates hated him, but that's okay since he's some kind of living god in basketball so people put up with that. If you are someone who routinely can get 3 covers (top 5 finish) prior to the alliance changes, plenty of alliance will be glad to take you as long as you don't regularly threaten to kill all your alliance members' kittens for failure.

Unknown

agree ...

Unknown

I can relate the OP on the time sink part of it. I'm no whale

There are events I would probably sit out because I had all the covers offered already, but being in an alliance (and alliance leader at that) I really can't skip an event completely. I finished top 100 in the Punisher event because I didn't need GSBW. I would have skipped it completely, but there were alliance members that needed the GSBW so I chose to get some points so we would be in top 100 alliance territory.

Now with seasons there's even more pressure to get points in PVP. I've noticed PvP is becoming more competitive with top 10 now requiring 800+pts when it used to be 700 or even less in some brackets. That means even more time commitment. Throw in a long PvE with subs cycling almost everyday and it leads to burnout. I'm not there yet, but I'm feeling it. I have to pace myself or I will burn out on this game.

All that said, I like alliances. It does add a layer to the game that can be fun. My alliance is pretty laid back. We're competitive and usually finish top 100, and I haven't seen anyone **** about less active players in the alliance. We have a good balance right now I hear about the drama in some alliances and I'm grateful my alliance ended up with a friendly low drama bunch. We are mostly a random collection of players but no seems to complain

Meto5000

AethD wrote:

1. Your "whale" is hardly a "whale" at all. A whale is going to have an 0/0/5 Fury, spending $20-$50 here and there, while not chump change, isn't on the same level. A whale can just buy all the packs until they get one of each cover then just buy all the covers.

For a mobile game like this a whale is typically somebody who spends more than $25 per month. The vast majority of users spend nothing, some spend small amounts, some spend moderate amounts, and the smallest percentage are those that spend $25+. Someone who drops $250 to max Fury's cover is certainly a whale, but they are not representative of the entire upper tier spending bracket.

AethD wrote:

2. There aren't possibly that many people who would normally place well in all the tournaments, enough to get all 3 covers, and aren't in alliances now. The numbers just don't add up. Not to mention the money alone from alliance slots is probably more than they'd lose by losing every anti-alliance person who spends $20-50 here and there.

There are people, myself included, who would rather just not be in an alliance at all, given the choice. Or rather, I would like to be in an alliance, but not have to worry that 19 other people competing at the same level as I am so we all get a prize. It's not about money, it's about how I like to play the game.

AethD wrote:

3. You want to only be competitive some of the time, but think that when you choose to be competitive you should be just as competitive as the players who are competitive all of the time. Alliances or not, most of your complaints about having to play all the time were still there before. You still needed the newest cover to do well and if you missed an event you were still screwed.

If I missed an event, especially a PvP event which typically only awards covers for existing characters I could "buy back" my time. I could spend cash to upgrade my covers. Hell, if I missed out on an entire new character release it just means I'm handicapped for the next PvP and PvE event. Eventually they'll release a new character and we'll more or less be back to square one. Now, if I miss an entire week it likely means my Alliance will replace me (rightfully so) because by not playing I am hurting them.

Without a top 100 alliance, a competitive player is literally unable to compete for a third cover. Being in a top 100 alliance means you take on a responsibility to your other alliance teammates. Not everyone wants this.

Meto5000

Phantron wrote:

Just because you're a loner or even anti-social doesn't mean you can't join an alliance. Michael Jordan is very demanding of his teammates and a lot of his teammates hated him, but that's okay since he's some kind of living god in basketball so people put up with that. If you are someone who routinely can get 3 covers (top 5 finish) prior to the alliance changes, plenty of alliance will be glad to take you as long as you don't regularly threaten to kill all your alliance members' kittens for failure.

Plenty of alliances would take you...if they could find you. What about loners who don't participate in the forums? It's not like the forums are actively advertised on the loading screen. I would be happy if they added global chat channels (capped at ~100 people) where you could seek out top 100 alliances needing players, but as it is, unless you seek out the forums, good luck with that. You can't even send people messages right now.

Nonce Equitaur 2

I made a suggestion for an Alliance-only shield

With this free shield, you'd win no player prizes, but your alliance gets points, and you'd win any alliance prizes. The shield takes you out of the rankings for player prizes.

If this shield gave 30% extra points, I think you'd see a lot of people abandoning the player prizes so they could boost their alliance with 30% less grinding.

More prizes for the people that need them, less grinding for the people that don't.

Meto5000

Colognoisseur wrote:

Riggy wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

Winning a single cover of a character doesn't mean anything in this game. It's just a small step towards something better. Even winning 4-6 covers of that same character is insignificant. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

I would argue that winning that first cover is not insignificant, given the whole "exclusive node" mechanic in PvE. But that's more just nitpicking since the real argument presented here is about the third cover. Which for a whale is probably a pretty big deal. It's the difference b/w a 5/5/0 and a 5/5/3 character.

Let me provide the counterpoint to the OP. I was also a Solo Whale Player and read the forums but never posted. I was happy being a lone wolf and playing my game. Then I saw the announcement for Alliances and the hint that there would be Alliance prizes. I immediately created a forum account and if you look, my first post is please someone take me into your alliance. Thankfully someone did, thanks LordWill. You know what I liked it not only do I like it I really like it. It adds another level of strategy beyond me, myself, and I. My team has been great and we have performed well enough to not miss out on any of the major awards. All games shift and the Solo Whale sometimes needs to swim with the other fishes to survive. I like it and because it has become more social for me I actually post a bit on the forums now instead of just reading.

I really enjoy the social aspect of the Alliance. I however, do not enjoy the forced grinding that 20/20 members are expected to fulfill every week. I saw someone else mention a suggestion that I liked. 25 slot alliances, but only the top 20 peoples scores are used for the calculations. This would allow people to take breaks once in a while without hurting their team. If there are people who abuse this privilege then they will be subject to whatever their Alliance commanders want to do with them.

Unknown

Meto5000 wrote:

It's not like the forums are actively advertised on the loading screen.

I think the forum address used to be on the popup message late last year, but you can find it clicking on the mail icon. You have a point though. Alliances brought a lot of people to the forums. Look at all the first post forumites in the alliance recruiting pages...

Unknown

I'm seriously considering to drop all PVE play after the recent one. Unless there is significant change (fat chance) to the structure. It requires excessive amount of time, strict timepoints of play for success and most importantly waaay too BORING repeating the same battles over and over with only "twist" to add insane scaling outside the design parameters. That is not fun either only painful.

Just PVP still seem working in the meantime as it can be done with not much time somewhere in the 2.5d period.

My alliance may not be happy about it -- if so I just quit, maybe join a pvp-only alliance.

Sure it means goodbye to new characters for a while as they arrive in PVE, but they are hardly better than what we already have and only essential for the next PVE... so it seem like a working contingency plan for now.

Unknown

Meto5000 wrote:

AethD wrote:

1. Your "whale" is hardly a "whale" at all. A whale is going to have an 0/0/5 Fury, spending $20-$50 here and there, while not chump change, isn't on the same level. A whale can just buy all the packs until they get one of each cover then just buy all the covers.

For a mobile game like this a whale is typically somebody who spends more than $25. The vast majority of users spend nothing, some spend small amounts, some spend moderate amounts, and the smallest percentage are those that spend $25+. Someone who drops $250 to max Fury's cover is certainly a whale, but they are not representative of the entire upper tier spending bracket.

AethD wrote:

2. There aren't possibly that many people who would normally place well in all the tournaments, enough to get all 3 covers, and aren't in alliances now. The numbers just don't add up. Not to mention the money alone from alliance slots is probably more than they'd lose by losing every anti-alliance person who spends $20-50 here and there.

There are people, myself included, who would rather just not be in an alliance at all, given the choice. Or rather, I would like to be in an alliance, but not have to worry that 19 other people competing at the same level as I am so we all get a prize. It's not about money, it's about how I like to play the game.

AethD wrote:

3. You want to only be competitive some of the time, but think that when you choose to be competitive you should be just as competitive as the players who are competitive all of the time. Alliances or not, most of your complaints about having to play all the time were still there before. You still needed the newest cover to do well and if you missed an event you were still screwed.

If I missed an event, especially a PvP event which typically only awards covers for existing characters I could "buy back" my time. I could spend cash to upgrade my covers. Hell, if I missed out on an entire new character release it just means I'm handicapped for the next PvP and PvE event. Eventually they'll release a new character and we'll more or less be back to square one. Now, if I miss an entire week it likely means my Alliance will replace me (rightfully so) because by not playing I am hurting them.

Without a top 100 alliance, a competitive player is literally unable to compete for a third cover. Being in a top 100 alliance means you take on a responsibility to your other alliance teammates. Not everyone wants this.

1. Again, no, you're not a whale, spending $25 doesn't make you a whale, just a paying player. The whales are the top % of people spending money, not anyone spending money. The most common purchase is the $20 HP, not everyone who bought the most popular selling item is a whale.

2. The point is that you're part of a very small minority. You don't want to be part of an alliance which is fine, but there are a greater number of people who are benefitting from alliances, at least cover-wise, than are being hurt by them. What's best for you isn't what the dev's feel is best for the health of the game.

3. As long as they rotate the cover colors, Solo players still have the possibility of getting everything, it'll just take longer. You're right, this game isn't TF2, it's designed to keep you busy trying to compete. The game has changed in a way that you don't like, but that doesn't mean it didn't change for the better on the whole, or that it didn't save lots more people from getting burnt out than will get burnout from this change (We don't have any numbers to back either side).

It's just as likely that alliances will lead to the birth of the Alliance whale player as well. While I like your idea of a separate bracket for people not in alliances, I don't think it's something that has to be done.

Unknown

Meto5000 wrote:

I really enjoy the social aspect of the Alliance. I however, do not enjoy the forced grinding that 20/20 members are expected to fulfill every week. I saw someone else mention a suggestion that I liked. 25 slot alliances, but only the top 20 peoples scores are used for the calculations. This would allow people to take breaks once in a while without hurting their team. If there are people who abuse this privilege then they will be subject to whatever their Alliance commanders want to do with them.

I would love to see this implemented in more of a 15/20 and then see about scaling alliances up to 25 slots.

Meto5000

AethD wrote:

1. Again, no, you're not a whale, spending $25 doesn't make you a whale, just a paying player. The whales are the top % of people spending money, not anyone spending money. The most common purchase is the $20 HP, not everyone who bought the most popular selling item is a whale.

You have no idea what I personally spend on this game per month so don't make assumptions. I'd also like to see your data on what a whale is since you seem to know definitively. Even if the most common purchase is $20 dollars, people who purchase them once and never again are different then people who spend $25+ per month, a minimum of $300 dollars per year. $300 dollars is more than an XBOX player spends per year getting COD and all of the addons. So yes, according to me, and according to the industry data provided by EEDAR (A video game research and consulting firm) a whale is defined as what I said earlier, a person who spends on average $25 dollars or more per month.

It's also cool, how you don't really bother reading all that I've written and just post arguments based on small snippets of what I say. I do want to be part of an alliance. I enjoy the social aspect of alliances, but the forced grinding of 20/20 members to stay competitive is overly excessive. Being forced into an alliance is not fun, not being able to play with friends unless they are at the same competitive level as you is not fun. Having to play every single day without a day off 7 days a week is not fun.

Also, I'm betting I'm not such a small minority. I may be in the minority of posters here, but that's mostly because most solo players probably don't ever visit the forums --- which happen to be one of the only and undoubtedly the best place to find competitive alliances.

Meto5000

Cryptobrancus wrote:

Meto5000 wrote:

I really enjoy the social aspect of the Alliance. I however, do not enjoy the forced grinding that 20/20 members are expected to fulfill every week. I saw someone else mention a suggestion that I liked. 25 slot alliances, but only the top 20 peoples scores are used for the calculations. This would allow people to take breaks once in a while without hurting their team. If there are people who abuse this privilege then they will be subject to whatever their Alliance commanders want to do with them.

I would love to see this implemented in more of a 15/20 and then see about scaling alliances up to 25 slots.

I'd be fine with that as well since 5 more slots would be more than $100 dollars worth of HP. I just think that the only way D3 would make a change like this would be if they could monetize it.

Puritas

few points of correction

If you have 3 maxed 141s as you claim, and can't find your way into a top 100 alliance, you're really doing something wrong.
Plenty of alliances, even in the top 10, have been reshuffling members as players burn out/migrate, and even someone with 3 level 100 chars is a very solid candidate.

If there's as many players as you feel that don't want to feel like they have to play every day and just make sporadic pushes, then you should be able to make a 20-man alliance with them effortlessly. Sure you might not get the top rewards, but if you're all casually playing then why do you have to have the same level of loot as people who put in 3-4x your time?

We're a top 3 alliance consistently, and we get there with people going on vacations/busy with work/family emergencies/events with kids.
Hell, we have one member going on a work trip with no internet for a month and it's not really going to hurt us.

Finally, you don't need featured/required characters to do well, it just makes it easier. You can skip those nodes/use the level 15 provided character and still place top 10.



Your complaints are basically boiling down to "I want the same perks and advantages without putting the time or effort into it that other players do"