SCL changes should lead to PVE placement changes

Nepenthe

Iirc, when previously asked about revamping rewards tiers, especially making SC8 more of a step up from SC7, @Brigby said something about that being on the table after the major change to scaling that they were working on was done.

Hopefully, now that we're seeing that change to scaling, or at the first test of it, rewards will be one of the next things addressed.  As it stands now, it looks like high SCs are scaled for people with rosters in the 5* or at least high-champed 4* range, but giving rewards more suited for a 3*-4* transitioner.

robertbah

I have been a competitive pve player for most of my time playing mpq. My roster progression is mostly from the high placement in pve. I understand the design of scaling is to make everyone basically play the same game and the speed of clearing would require certain teams or some boosts and so on. However, scaling is too simple to accommodate all possible situations. The new proposed static levels in pve is their saying that they cannot keep everyone happy and let's give it up. I think that they are missing the aspect that now the low rosters would have no chance in getting 4* since the math simply prevent them from achieving it. They should at least penalize the roster intentionally goes to cl7 or cl6 to bully the designated residents (4* or 3* rosters). 

KGB

They could fix the problem of people going to lower clearance levels by simply turning every CL into a form of Heroic.

SCL1 : 1* characters only + the 2,3,4* essential
SCL2-3: 1&2* characters only + 3,4* essential
SCL4-5: 1-3* characters only + 4* essential
SCL6-7: 1-4* characters only
SCL8: any characters

Now if you want to drop down to SCL7 you can only use your 4* and below so all those champed 5* won't be blowing through the nodes that are capped at 270. The boosted 4* champs will still have a relatively easy time on most nodes and be challenged after 4 clears in the top nodes.

It also means if you don't have good boosted 4* characters or want to take a break from higher level PvE you can drop down to CL5 for an event and just bring out your 2&3* teams again for nostalgia.

KGB

Crowl

Warbringa said:

The only option to prevent this would be to restrict SCL based on roster somehow.  If you have more than X champed 4*, you can only play in SCL 8 or higher and if you any 5* at X covers or level, you must play SCL 8 or higher. 

The problem with this suggestion is that the range of people that qualify for SCL8 is far too broad for the power range between 4* rosters and champed 5* rosters, so all you have done is change who is being to compete against rosters that are well beyond theirs rather than fixing the issue.

Brigby

KGB said:

They could fix the problem of people going to lower clearance levels by simply turning every CL into a form of Heroic.

SCL1 : 1* characters only + the 2,3,4* essential
SCL2-3: 1&2* characters only + 3,4* essential
SCL4-5: 1-3* characters only + 4* essential
SCL6-7: 1-4* characters only
SCL8: any characters

Now if you want to drop down to SCL7 you can only use your 4* and below so all those champed 5* won't be blowing through the nodes that are capped at 270. The boosted 4* champs will still have a relatively easy time on most nodes and be challenged after 4 clears in the top nodes.

It also means if you don't have good boosted 4* characters or want to take a break from higher level PvE you can drop down to CL5 for an event and just bring out your 2&3* teams again for nostalgia.

KGB

@KGB
That's certainly an interesting idea. Are you suggesting this to be applied on top of scaling being tied to SCL, or in lieu of that implementation?

In addition, would this not potentially be viewed as a negative change, since it restricts the choices players have when creating rosters? (For example, maybe someone in SCL 5 has a 1/1/1 4-Star they want to try comboing with some 3-Stars)

aa25

Brigby said:

In addition, would this not potentially be viewed as a negative change, since it restricts the choices players have when creating rosters? (For example, maybe someone in SCL 5 has a 1/1/1 4-Star they want to try comboing with some 3-Stars)

Based on my experience, it makes no sense running 1/1/1 4* along with any 3*. Under-covered 4* is extremely weak. It won't help you at all until you have at least one power at 5 covers. There are a few exception, but overall, it's either champed 4* or lv70 4*.

Brigby

@aa25
Oh I absolutely agree. It's most likely there are far more optimized choices to fill that spot, other than an under-covered 4-Star. Having said that though, would players not see this as eliminating their choice to experiment, even if it meant they'd be under-performing if they did so?

(For example, I only have 1 yellow cover for C4rol, but I wanted to try her out with Human Torch (Johnny Storm) and Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon))

pheregas

Removing placement incentivizes roster use diversity.  Step one was making 4s usable again with the new CL-Scaling test (in CL8 at least).

Step two is removing points timers.

Step three is removing placement entirely and folding in rewards with the newest 4 being the end (with 4 clears/day leading to the first cover, 5 clears/day the second, and 6 clears/day the third).  This eliminates bracket-sniping.  This encourages different roster use.  Why?  If I'm not timed, who cares what team I use?  As it is, the team I use is the one that gets me done the fastest.  This aides all tiers.

Also, fast does not equal fun.

bbigler

I can handle the grinding aspect of PVE in order to get better rewards.  But............

I don't like the fact that you have to play at specific times CONTINUOUSLY UNINTERRUPTED AS FAST AS POSSIBLE in order to get some nice placement rewards.  I would prefer to play PVE at my own pace, without sacrificing the rewards.  I don't want to feel rushed.  I want to explore new teams and take the time to figure out how to play them.  That's the fun part of the game.

Remove placement rewards, remove point refresh counters, beef up progression rewards, and add a few more progression rewards for clearing up to 6 times, but no more.  Clearing each node 6 times isn't so bad if I can spread it out throughout the day.  Playing for a straight 2-3 hour block every night is bad for many reasons.  This game is meant to be fun, not a chore.

PVP is not as bad as PVE, if you do it right.  PVP is time sensitive, but not as bad.  I can choose when to climb and when to shield hop.  I make enough HP that shield hopping is not terribly expensive either. 

MissChinch

bbigler said:

I can handle the grinding aspect of PVE in order to get better rewards.  But............

I don't like the fact that you have to play at specific times CONTINUOUSLY UNINTERRUPTED AS FAST AS POSSIBLE in order to get some nice placement rewards.  I would prefer to play PVE at my own pace, without sacrificing the rewards.  I don't want to feel rushed.  I want to explore new teams and take the time to figure out how to play them.  That's the fun part of the game.

Remove placement rewards, remove point refresh counters, beef up progression rewards, and add a few more progression rewards for clearing up to 6 times, but no more.  Clearing each node 6 times isn't so bad if I can spread it out throughout the day.  Playing for a straight 2-3 hour block every night is bad for many reasons.  This game is meant to be fun, not a chore.

PVP is not as bad as PVE, if you do it right.  PVP is time sensitive, but not as bad.  I can choose when to climb and when to shield hop.  I make enough HP that shield hopping is not terribly expensive either. 

I'm all for them adding progression rewards all the way up to the theoretical max points that will be impossible to actually reach, keep rewarding people that play, don't take the rewards we now have and push them back like they did before, but I've got nothing against more rewards for more playing... 

No one needs to hit all the progression rewards, so long as they are adequate for the time invested...  right now there is massive value dumped at the final progression reward, so if you go past the 4* cover theres no point in stopped before the final reward, but more rewards don't have to be set to the same structure.

They could make 6 clears at any time be 4k iso or something, 6 clears at a more optimal timing be another 3CP, and 7 clears with decent timing be 150HP or something like that...  nothing earthshaking but something to reward people...  I'm much rather have that type of a reward structure than placement in PvE.

aa25

Brigby said:

@aa25
Oh I absolutely agree. It's most likely there are far more optimized choices to fill that spot, other than an under-covered 4-Star. Having said that though, would players not see this as eliminating their choice to experiment, even if it meant they'd be under-performing if they did so?

(For example, I only have 1 yellow cover for C4rol, but I wanted to try her out with Human Torch (Johnny Storm) and Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon))

You are correct that having a place test out the character is a nice thing to have. (And actually players have been asking for such mode where you can test out a character without having to invest resources on them, but I understand if that would cause issue of players only play that test mode instead)

However, I don't think you will see the true potential of any 4* that way anyway. For example in case of C4rol/4Marv's yellow (I don't know why I like call her this way) at lv70 (numbers from her character thread.)

1-cover: Improve 1 tile for 56
2-cover: Improve 1 tile for 78 (12% improvement from previous cover)
3-cover: Improve 2 tiles for 101 (159% improvement from previous cover)
4-cover: Improve 2 tiles for 146 (45% improvement from previous cover)
5-cover: Improve 3 tiles for 222 (128% improvement from previous cover)

Testing her out at 1 vs. 3 vs. 5 covers can give you a drastically different experience with her.

Especially, if you test her against a fully covered opponents.

Nepenthe

Brigby said:

KGB said:

They could fix the problem of people going to lower clearance levels by simply turning every CL into a form of Heroic.

SCL1 : 1* characters only + the 2,3,4* essential
SCL2-3: 1&2* characters only + 3,4* essential
SCL4-5: 1-3* characters only + 4* essential
SCL6-7: 1-4* characters only
SCL8: any characters

Now if you want to drop down to SCL7 you can only use your 4* and below so all those champed 5* won't be blowing through the nodes that are capped at 270. The boosted 4* champs will still have a relatively easy time on most nodes and be challenged after 4 clears in the top nodes.

It also means if you don't have good boosted 4* characters or want to take a break from higher level PvE you can drop down to CL5 for an event and just bring out your 2&3* teams again for nostalgia.

KGB

@KGB
That's certainly an interesting idea. Are you suggesting this to be applied on top of scaling being tied to SCL, or in lieu of that implementation?

In addition, would this not potentially be viewed as a negative change, since it restricts the choices players have when creating rosters? (For example, maybe someone in SCL 5 has a 1/1/1 4-Star they want to try comboing with some 3-Stars)

@Brigby, I think this restriction would definitely be seen as a negative, and it's wholly unnecessary because of the reward structure.  Everyone's afraid of people dropping down CLs, but apart from 7-8 not having much difference in rewards there's very little chance you'll see many players who are after 4*s drop down to CL 1-6 to compete for placement. 

Once I accidentally picked CL1 and CS wouldn't move me. I got #1 from doing 6 clears because I had the essential characters. My reward was a shiny 2* Thor cover, iirc.  Not eager to do that again.

MissChinch

Nepenthe said:

Brigby said:

KGB said:

They could fix the problem of people going to lower clearance levels by simply turning every CL into a form of Heroic.

SCL1 : 1* characters only + the 2,3,4* essential
SCL2-3: 1&2* characters only + 3,4* essential
SCL4-5: 1-3* characters only + 4* essential
SCL6-7: 1-4* characters only
SCL8: any characters

Now if you want to drop down to SCL7 you can only use your 4* and below so all those champed 5* won't be blowing through the nodes that are capped at 270. The boosted 4* champs will still have a relatively easy time on most nodes and be challenged after 4 clears in the top nodes.

It also means if you don't have good boosted 4* characters or want to take a break from higher level PvE you can drop down to CL5 for an event and just bring out your 2&3* teams again for nostalgia.

KGB

@KGB
That's certainly an interesting idea. Are you suggesting this to be applied on top of scaling being tied to SCL, or in lieu of that implementation?

In addition, would this not potentially be viewed as a negative change, since it restricts the choices players have when creating rosters? (For example, maybe someone in SCL 5 has a 1/1/1 4-Star they want to try comboing with some 3-Stars)

@Brigby, I think this restriction would definitely be seen as a negative, and it's wholly unnecessary because of the reward structure.  Everyone's afraid of people dropping down CLs, but apart from 7-8 not having much difference in rewards there's very little chance you'll see many players who are after 4*s drop down to CL 1-6 to compete for placement. 

Once I accidentally picked CL1 and CS wouldn't move me. I got #1 from doing 6 clears because I had the essential characters. My reward was a shiny 2* Thor cover, iirc.  Not eager to do that again.

I agree completely, if there is a perceived issue with characters able to play at higher levels electing to play at lower levels I think it should be corrected by evaluating the rewards at the SCL in question, not restricting play... 

Basepuzzler

@robertbah

your softcapped roster is exactly what the developers are trying to stop incentivizing with the new scaling.  Level your fully covered 5's!

Spudgutter

Brigby said:

KGB said:

They could fix the problem of people going to lower clearance levels by simply turning every CL into a form of Heroic.

SCL1 : 1* characters only + the 2,3,4* essential
SCL2-3: 1&2* characters only + 3,4* essential
SCL4-5: 1-3* characters only + 4* essential
SCL6-7: 1-4* characters only
SCL8: any characters

Now if you want to drop down to SCL7 you can only use your 4* and below so all those champed 5* won't be blowing through the nodes that are capped at 270. The boosted 4* champs will still have a relatively easy time on most nodes and be challenged after 4 clears in the top nodes.

It also means if you don't have good boosted 4* characters or want to take a break from higher level PvE you can drop down to CL5 for an event and just bring out your 2&3* teams again for nostalgia.

KGB

@KGB
That's certainly an interesting idea. Are you suggesting this to be applied on top of scaling being tied to SCL, or in lieu of that implementation?

In addition, would this not potentially be viewed as a negative change, since it restricts the choices players have when creating rosters? (For example, maybe someone in SCL 5 has a 1/1/1 4-Star they want to try comboing with some 3-Stars)

@Brigby

I don't think very many would view this as a negative, because if someone in SCL5 (rank 20 minimum) wants to try out a 4 star, they are probably pretty close to SCL6 (minimum rank 27) and could just play there. Plus, any negative side of roster limitation would be outweighed by the fact that, competitively, everyone would be forced to utilize the same rosters, so that would level the playing field even more. The last thing I would want to be is a person at rank 24, comfortably in the middle of scl5, to consistently be out placed by someone with a far superior roster.

As for the higher end rosters, i think they would love it. We see posts pop up all the time from vets requesting they bring back heroic restrictions. 

Spudgutter

Nepenthe said:

Brigby said:

KGB said:

They could fix the problem of people going to lower clearance levels by simply turning every CL into a form of Heroic.

SCL1 : 1* characters only + the 2,3,4* essential
SCL2-3: 1&2* characters only + 3,4* essential
SCL4-5: 1-3* characters only + 4* essential
SCL6-7: 1-4* characters only
SCL8: any characters

Now if you want to drop down to SCL7 you can only use your 4* and below so all those champed 5* won't be blowing through the nodes that are capped at 270. The boosted 4* champs will still have a relatively easy time on most nodes and be challenged after 4 clears in the top nodes.

It also means if you don't have good boosted 4* characters or want to take a break from higher level PvE you can drop down to CL5 for an event and just bring out your 2&3* teams again for nostalgia.

KGB

@KGB
That's certainly an interesting idea. Are you suggesting this to be applied on top of scaling being tied to SCL, or in lieu of that implementation?

In addition, would this not potentially be viewed as a negative change, since it restricts the choices players have when creating rosters? (For example, maybe someone in SCL 5 has a 1/1/1 4-Star they want to try comboing with some 3-Stars)

@Brigby, I think this restriction would definitely be seen as a negative, and it's wholly unnecessary because of the reward structure.  Everyone's afraid of people dropping down CLs, but apart from 7-8 not having much difference in rewards there's very little chance you'll see many players who are after 4*s drop down to CL 1-6 to compete for placement. 

Once I accidentally picked CL1 and CS wouldn't move me. I got #1 from doing 6 clears because I had the essential characters. My reward was a shiny 2* Thor cover, iirc.  Not eager to do that again.

@Nepenthe

I think you missed the premise of kgb's post.  KGB was trying to fix the scaling by making scl7 unattractive to 5* players, because the 5*'s would be locked out. Sure, you dont have many people who qualify easily for scl7 going to scl6, but scl7 has plenty of people who could easily do scl8 but choose not to because they can steamroll the competition with much better rosters. 

I don't think it is fair to judge the idea because you accidentally choose the lowest level by accident, one time.

Spudgutter

MissChinch said:

Nepenthe said:

Brigby said:

KGB said:

They could fix the problem of people going to lower clearance levels by simply turning every CL into a form of Heroic.

SCL1 : 1* characters only + the 2,3,4* essential
SCL2-3: 1&2* characters only + 3,4* essential
SCL4-5: 1-3* characters only + 4* essential
SCL6-7: 1-4* characters only
SCL8: any characters

Now if you want to drop down to SCL7 you can only use your 4* and below so all those champed 5* won't be blowing through the nodes that are capped at 270. The boosted 4* champs will still have a relatively easy time on most nodes and be challenged after 4 clears in the top nodes.

It also means if you don't have good boosted 4* characters or want to take a break from higher level PvE you can drop down to CL5 for an event and just bring out your 2&3* teams again for nostalgia.

KGB

@KGB
That's certainly an interesting idea. Are you suggesting this to be applied on top of scaling being tied to SCL, or in lieu of that implementation?

In addition, would this not potentially be viewed as a negative change, since it restricts the choices players have when creating rosters? (For example, maybe someone in SCL 5 has a 1/1/1 4-Star they want to try comboing with some 3-Stars)

@Brigby, I think this restriction would definitely be seen as a negative, and it's wholly unnecessary because of the reward structure.  Everyone's afraid of people dropping down CLs, but apart from 7-8 not having much difference in rewards there's very little chance you'll see many players who are after 4*s drop down to CL 1-6 to compete for placement. 

Once I accidentally picked CL1 and CS wouldn't move me. I got #1 from doing 6 clears because I had the essential characters. My reward was a shiny 2* Thor cover, iirc.  Not eager to do that again.

I agree completely, if there is a perceived issue with characters able to play at higher levels electing to play at lower levels I think it should be corrected by evaluating the rewards at the SCL in question, not restricting play... 

While i don't disagree in principle, the reality is that rewards get restructured at a snails pace around here.  This is evidenced by the recent update to the DDQ.  I'm around day 1250, and I can tell you the the introduction if the DDQ was huge at the time.  The modification recently added tokens, 2cp and some iso.  Not bad, but nowhere near the game changer the original was.  Do you honestly believe that they would make scl8 so much better that it would impress everyone who could play it, to do so?  

And I'm not talking about *should* they, i think most people's agree that they should. I'm talking about *would* they.  

Khanwulf

Brigby said:

@aa25
Oh I absolutely agree. It's most likely there are far more optimized choices to fill that spot, other than an under-covered 4-Star. Having said that though, would players not see this as eliminating their choice to experiment, even if it meant they'd be under-performing if they did so?

(For example, I only have 1 yellow cover for C4rol, but I wanted to try her out with Human Torch (Johnny Storm) and Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon))

I think if you're going to be running tests on PVE format, you may as well run tests on PVE format. Perhaps a few players would be inconvenienced by the scenario you present, but I think the impact would be very minor. The benefit, however, for Devs getting their hands finally around scaling, SCL and rosters is immense--this is a major challenge in balancing rewards and expectations. 

SCL segmentation of the player base should be a way to let them tune content more appropriately, but it hasn't worked that way due to mobility. Instead, it just gates reward tiers by time played, effectively. So SCL isn't delivering the value it promises as a management tool, and it's no wonder there's not an SCL 9 and 10 yet.

Further to the original point, it's quite easy to level to SCL 7, even before your roster is strong enough to really handle its levels. If someone collects a few 4s early they have Versus and a short wait until SCL 7. Plus, those 4*s will be needed for required nodes, anyway.

Lastly, if Devs are conceptually OK with vaulting 3/4ths of the 4*s to balance completion timeframes of the remainder, then DDQ-gating SCL level content in PVE to gain management control should be a no-brainer. Keep in mind that being able to know what kind of characters a PVE board will have fielded against it makes it possible to exactly adjust clear requirements (3, 4, 5 node clears) as well as rewards to achieve desired advancement rates.

DDQ-gating PVE content could permit opening SCL 9 and 10 to higher node grinding rates while providing lower SCLs (7, later 8) for more incomplete 4* rosters. You can make assumptions about what types of players are playing, where.

--Khanwulf

lpearl

I think the concept of SCL levels corresponding to enemy levels is a good change. I think where this test is skewing the results is the large jump of difficulty between SCL7 and SCL8 compared to the small increase in rewards. With proper spacing, I think it works.

broll

KGB said:

They could fix the problem of people going to lower clearance levels by simply turning every CL into a form of Heroic.

SCL1 : 1* characters only + the 2,3,4* essential
SCL2-3: 1&2* characters only + 3,4* essential
SCL4-5: 1-3* characters only + 4* essential
SCL6-7: 1-4* characters only
SCL8: any characters

Now if you want to drop down to SCL7 you can only use your 4* and below so all those champed 5* won't be blowing through the nodes that are capped at 270. The boosted 4* champs will still have a relatively easy time on most nodes and be challenged after 4 clears in the top nodes.

It also means if you don't have good boosted 4* characters or want to take a break from higher level PvE you can drop down to CL5 for an event and just bring out your 2&3* teams again for nostalgia.

KGB

Heroics were largely disliked, why would we got back to that?

There's a much, much, much simpler reward, make the jumps between SCLs meaningful.
Example T10 Rewards (ISO only as an example)
SCL1 - 100 ISO
SCL2 - 500 ISO
SCL3 - 1000 ISO
SCL4 - 2000 ISO
SCL5 - 4000 ISO
SCL6 - 8000 ISO
SCL7 - 12000 ISO
SCL8 - 20000 ISO

I picked ISO as the highlighting factor because ISO is a resource that everyone needs and is almost always in short supply.  I doubt there would be many people that would forgot thousands of ISO to play down an SCL or 2.  Do the same thing with number of token and covers.  Make the jumps so meanful that it would be stupid to play down unless you had to and you feel rewarded for the accomplishment of reaching a new level.