Mandatory targeting

Nathanyel

In paper Magic, a card that says "Target creature gets..." can't be cast without specifying a creature to target, while a card that says "You may have target creature get..." can be cast without specifying a target.

Now, to MtG:PQ. I am accustomed to the AI opponents casting cards with "Target creature gets X until end of turn" on my creatures to just empty their hand sometimes, but they ARE specifying a target. However, the other day, my opponent was able to play Cast Out (support; target creature is disabled as long as Cast Out is on the board) while the only creatures were on his side of the board, and he didn't target ANYTHING to be disabled! Then today, my opponent played EMN's Chilling Grasp (disable two target creatures for a turn) while I had one creature and he had two...and was somehow able to only disable MINE!

So, my point is: How come cards with mandatory-targeting wording ("Target X gets..." or "Target X is...") can be played without targeting the number of X's (creatures/supports) specified in the effect?

Furks

The chilling grasp one just targets the same creature twice. I used to play the card in an old deck and that was something I would regularly do. 

I think the support is a bit different in that its effect is 'when it comes into play'. You play the support, it asks for the target but you cancel the target selection. End result - support was played but no target selected. I do agree it seem seems like a bug, supports should behave like spells in this scenario 

Delnai

I agree it can be a little confusing. Though it's worth noting that Cast Out -doesn't- say, "Target creature..." but rather, "When you cast this support,..." That makes it more like an in-cast triggered ability in MtG. And in MtG, not having targets for a triggered ability doesn't keep its trigger from happening (obviously), the ability just doesn't go in the stack. So I don't see much reason for you to expect it to happen here. There's precedent, too, in Oath of Liliana. 

wereotter

Cast Out is working as intended. As mentioned above, the disable is an on cast trigger meaning you don't have to have a target in order to cast it, and it's identical to the paper counterpart for the same card which requires you to exile a non-land permenant until the enchantment leaves play, meaning you could cast it with no legal exile target, but there's no need unless you're trying to get your Sphere of Safety working harder or turn up your devotion to white, so in most cases you simply wouldn't. 

Nathanyel

@Furks: I see now that that is how it works, but that's not what it says. If that is how the designers want it to work, stated effect should be changed from "Target 2 creatures..." to "Up to 2 target creatures..." Considering the introduction of Standard to MtG:PQ, however, I doubt that they will take the time to make this small change, however essential to players in terms of accurately understanding this spell's effect before using it.

@Delnai: Cast Out's MtG:PQ effect says "When you cast this support, target creature is disabled until this support is Destroyed. Cycling 2."

@wereotter: In MtG:PQ, Cast Out's effect begins "When you cast this support...," while the paper-MtG version begins "When Cast Out enters the battlefield..." This is, from my view, where the issue occurs. If an effect happens when I cast a card, then I must have a valid target for the effect while the card is still in my hand. If, however, it is to happen after the card ETB, then I can cast the card regardless of whether there was a valid target for the effect while the card was in my hand. Easy solution for D3Go, I think, would be to simply shorten Cast Out's effect to "Target creature is disabled until this support is Destroyed. Cycling 2."

Furks

@Nathanyel I think we can all agree that the wording on cards could be more consistent. Not to mention all the cards that don't behave as expected due to bugs 

Nathanyel

Aside from the cycling ability, is there any difference in effect between Cast Out and Suppression Bonds?

Delnai

@Nathanyel I should have been more
clear. Of course I understand that the words "target creature" appear in the text. What I was referring to is the fact that in Cast Out's text, the words "target creature" are preceded by a dependent clause. In Magic, this would make it a triggered ability, rather than a static ability. (In fact, if we're talking about Magic, then it wouldn't even make sense to see the words "Target creature" starting a sentence on an artifact or enchantment. You only see this on instant or sorceries, or activated abilities.) And as @wereotter pointed out, triggered abilities that trigger off casting do not need to have valid targets in order for the card to be cast. You are wrong in saying that they do; if no valid target for the trigger exists, the triggered ability simply won't go on the stack (see rule 603.3d of the comprehensive rules). While you are right that a -card- which has a target cannot be cast without a target, Cast Out is not a card with a target. (In particular, the only permanents in Magic to have targets are Auras, cf. rule 114.1b.)

But anyway, it was dumb of me to compare templating in this game to templating in Magic, since templating in Magic is taken very seriously and templating in this game is at best an afterthought. 

ElfNeedsFood

Nathanyel said:

Aside from the cycling ability, is there any difference in effect between Cast Out and Suppression Bonds?

Yes. Huge. Cast out lets you pick which creature to disable. You can also stack and disable all three creatures. 

Suppression Bonds always takes out the first creature, but if that creature dies, the next creature in the stack will become disabled so it's a tad more persistent although it only has one shield, so not a lot more persistent. Stacking's only effect is more shields. You can also have this out before your oponent had a creature is on the board and your opinent's first creature will hit the board disabled. 

ElfNeedsFood

 Not having Arlinn, I totally assumed you could use her third ability without a werewolf on the board as it says "each werewolf you control" not "target".  There's also the transform secondary ability that would make triggering without a target truly useful...

rafalele

ElfNeedsFood said:

 Not having Arlinn, I totally assumed you could use her third ability without a werewolf on the board as it says "each werewolf you control" not "target".  There's also the transform secondary ability that would make triggering without a target truly useful...

Actually it does not work wif you don't have a werewolf on board. I have tried it.

ElfNeedsFood

rafalele said:

ElfNeedsFood said:

 Not having Arlinn, I totally assumed you could use her third ability without a werewolf on the board as it says "each werewolf you control" not "target".  There's also the transform secondary ability that would make triggering without a target truly useful...

Actually it does not work wif you don't have a werewolf on board. I have tried it.

Interesting, someone else mentioned it didn't work on the "fix Arlinn" thread.