Varied Metagame?

sambrookjm

I believe that one of the main reasons why the 4-star heroes were vaulted was to allow the metagame to evolve, so everyone isn't always seeing the same batch of characters in PvP fights. Today in the Simulator, four of the five teams I had the opportunity to fighter were Champed Peggy, Champed Medusa, and Champed Wasp. The fifth was a throwback, with Old Man Logan, champed Iceman, and champed Nova. Have other people been seeing an increase in the number of different teams in the Simulator? If anything, I've been seeing a lot of very similar teams running around I don't expect all that much difference in the 3-star PvP events, as boosted 4-stars (and this week, a boosted 3-star Iron Man to help get the AP) generally run rampant there.

sambrookjm

I somehow submitted this before I was done typing, and I can't edit my original post.  Strange.  When did editing get nerfed?  All I have for options are Flag, Quote, Insightful, and Like.

In any event, It was champed Medusa, Wasp, and 4-star Carol, and not Peggy that took up four of the five fight slots.  I had just used Peggy in one of those fights on my team, as several other members of my 4-star roster were still recovering from other fights...which is where that came from.

The Star-Lord PvP event is a little better, but as I started to say, the boosted 4-stars are running wild.  Iron Man powering up Red Hulk's Green will do that.  There was a fun team of boosted Carnage/Mr F, which I didn't expect to see...so kudos to whomever put those two out.  I used boosted X-23 and my own Mr F in that one.  Fortunately, the AI doesn't wait for 10 red AP to fire off Carnage's ability, so he always damaged his own team members...which is the only reason I won that fight.

fnedude

Yeah, I noticed the same thing (with about 1wk left during the last Season).  It was Peggy/Carol/4Blade (or Wasp).

A majority of my MMR had those up (I only have Peggy champed).  So no mirror matchup for me.

Vaulting has certainly made everyone "focus" all of their iso8 to champ the "last 12" (who's going to was iso8 on an old char like Elektra/Mr.F/etc?).   So we'll see everyone focus on champing their "last 12", and then add in the new characters as they are rotated in (and as people draw more covers for them).

It cuts down on variety, IMO.  Which is a downside...

beyonderbub

People are always going to use their highest levelled, champed and boosted toons to get thru a pvp battle as fast as possible; that has nothing to do with focusing on the latest. Variety is a luxury you can afford in the early stages of climbing; not so much when crossing 900-1200 in pvp; or trying to get 2000 in shield simulator. 

Pants1000

You could be seeing players new to the 4* game.  Before vaulting they had no champs, or maybe a few that they had managed to fully cover, now they have a handful of the latest 12, which are pretty darn good.

There are quite a few people using those characters, because they're good and more accessible now.  I'm still seeing a good variety, although that could be because I'm using a 420 OML and 2 champed 4's.  Here are my 5 opponents now in Sim:

OML/Thanos/Carol
Fury/4Clops/XFW
Thanos/5trange/BP
Medusa/Blade/Carol
Medusa/Blade/IMHB

Borstock

As my score increases in sim, I can usually skip enough to the point where every single team available is some variation/combination of 4 characters. It is what it is, I guess. 

BlackBoltRocks

fnedude said:

who's going to [waste] iso8 on an old char like Elektra/Mr.F/etc

Me. In the last month I champed Elektra and Iceman. Planning to champ Kate and Miles in the coming months; Carnage if i ever get his last two covers and spare iso; and Eddie Venom if he ever gets a buff

Vhailorx

Shield sim has teams that show a mix of:

(1) availability: which characters do lots of players have covered at each tier; and 
(2) synergy: which teams work well together.

Vaulting will have a significant effect on #1.  It tue old system age was the best predictor of covers.  So the oldest strong 4*s (imhb, jg, iceman, etc) were all over SSim.  Even when they were no longer the best available 4*s, they were good enough and many more people had them well covered.  In this new system, recent 4*s will be favored, as it's much easier for a new player to get medusa or carol covered than iceman.  We,may see a short term period where both old and new 4*s are common, but it will he short lived as the nimber of vets with deep vintage benches dwindles compared to newer players with current 12 4* rosters.

But i disagree with TC about #2.  Vaulting won't really have an effect on team synergy.  Good characters remain good and bad ones remain bad.  Power creep is also a real factor (compare newer 4* damage/ap numbers to imhb), that affects SSim heavily.

Azoth658

It could also be trying out teams. That's what I use simulator for until those higher points where I have to use my best team for the 2000.

Generally testing teams means the latest characters you've invested in.

Also I'd say don't forget the characters you're facing are some of the best characters in the game. If you've got carol she's likely going to be on your PvP team. If you've got medusa she's going to be on your team just like iron fist used to be as nobody wants that passive damage every turn. Then your third will probably be Peggy to frustrate the attacker with slowness.

My sim team though is champed Peggy and level 170ish Medusa and Carnage. I'm winning well over 50% of my defense fights.

Daiches

You mean it's all only BP/Thano5 teams

Jarvind

Virtually every team I see has some combination of Carol, Wasp, Medusa and Peggy in it. There are a few Red Hulks, C4ges and Icemen scattered here and there, but vaulting has really homogenized SHIELD Sim.

beyonderbub

I'm using 3 champed 4*s, mirror teams or 2 weak 5*s and a champed 4. I'm around the 1000 mark and these are my 5 teams to fight:

Carnage/Medusa/Mr F
Peggy/Surfer/X-23
PHX/4pool/Bl4de
OML/BSS/PHX
OML/3Fist/Prof X

i still think people use best they have. I switched up my teams just to test my new champs and save on health packs. I don't have a set go-to team. 

bbigler

Enjoy this time before everyone starts champing the new Rocket & Groot, then you'll see R&G + Medusa + Carnage.  That team will strike fear into anyone that sees it, and destroy anyone who fights against it.

1st Turn AI - 7 Strikes Tiles + Medusa tile + 4 Carnage attack tiles = approx 1150 match damage + 2000 end of turn.

Even if you match away the enemy special tiles, Carnage just makes more and Medusa heals the team every time!  So, the auto-damage never stops and the auto-healing prolongs the game.  Even if you win, you'll need health packs.

mpqr7

I would have loved to have seen teams like this. Now that I've crossed into the 5* meta, my Sim PVP has actually gotten way more difficult, facing dreadful teams of championed Thanos/BB/BP, etc.

It was actually way easier for me to cross into 2000+ in Sim when my best team was lv 420 OML + two championed 4*s. Oh well, I brought this upon myself!

bbigler

Oh, this future PVP team is even better!

4*Grocket + Star Lord + Medusa

1st turn = 2150 match damage + 2600 end of turn

Enjoy!

Dauthi

I also agree that PVP has become less varied. I consistently see only the best newest 4*s.

I think part of this is because it is really easy to transition to 4 star play now. It's great for new players, but as a veteran I am seeing a lot less advantage. My older and in most cases inferior champed 4*s are not only unbuildable, but are now useless in the face of the much better 4 stars.

Essentially all 4* veterans have been put on even playing ground as new 4* players.

bbigler

Dauthi said:

I also agree that PVP has become less varied. I consistently see only the best newest 4*s.

I think part of this is because it is really easy to transition to 4 star play now. It's great for new players, but as a veteran I am seeing a lot less advantage. My older and in most cases inferior champed 4*s are not only unbuildable, but are now useless in the face of the much better 4 stars.

Essentially all 4* veterans have been put on even playing ground as new 4* players.

That's true in Shield Simulator, but not true in PVP or PVE.  With a diverse 4* roster, you can always use the boosted 4*s in the event and kick butt.  New players with just a handful of new 4* champs cannot.  Plus, a diverse 4* roster helps you to win the Clash of the Titans regularly, which new players cannot.  Veterans have their 3*s at higher champ levels than new players too.  Plus, veterans are closer to the 5* transition.  Veterans still have an advantage. 

Here's a good question: when does a player change from being considered "new" to "veteran".  After 1 year? 2 years? 3 years!?  This is such a long game that we consider players with less than 1 year of experience to still be "new". 

For example, I definitely consider myself to be a veteran player because I started playing in November 2013, but I only have 700 days played because I've quit and come back 3 times.

Dauthi

bbigler said:

Dauthi said:

I also agree that PVP has become less varied. I consistently see only the best newest 4*s.

I think part of this is because it is really easy to transition to 4 star play now. It's great for new players, but as a veteran I am seeing a lot less advantage. My older and in most cases inferior champed 4*s are not only unbuildable, but are now useless in the face of the much better 4 stars.

Essentially all 4* veterans have been put on even playing ground as new 4* players.

That's true in Shield Simulator, but not true in PVP or PVE.  With a diverse 4* roster, you can always use the boosted 4*s in the event and kick butt.  New players with just a handful of new 4* champs cannot.  Plus, a diverse 4* roster helps you to win the Clash of the Titans regularly, which new players cannot.  Veterans have their 3*s at higher champ levels than new players too.  Plus, veterans are closer to the 5* transition.  Veterans still have an advantage. 

Here's a good question: when does a player change from being considered "new" to "veteran".  After 1 year? 2 years? 3 years!?  This is such a long game that we consider players with less than 1 year of experience to still be "new". 

For example, I definitely consider myself to be a veteran player because I started playing in November 2013, but I only have 700 days played because I've quit and come back 3 times.

You are likely to have 2 boosted 4*s in PVP if you have around 25+ champed 4*s, regardless of new or old characters. I would argue new characters are typically better than older ones too.

In any case, with the vaulting changes newer players are building 4* rosters incredibly fast and hitting that 25+ number. In PVP over the last month I have seen a huge increase in boosted 4* teams I fight.

When I say veteran I refer to those solidly in the 4*realm. Really it is a subjective term when it comes to MPQ.

sambrookjm

bbigler said:

Enjoy this time before everyone starts champing the new Rocket & Groot, then you'll see R&G + Medusa + Carnage.  That team will strike fear into anyone that sees it, and destroy anyone who fights against it.

1st Turn AI - 7 Strikes Tiles + Medusa tile + 4 Carnage attack tiles = approx 1150 match damage + 2000 end of turn.

Even if you match away the enemy special tiles, Carnage just makes more and Medusa heals the team every time!  So, the auto-damage never stops and the auto-healing prolongs the game.  Even if you win, you'll need health packs.

Yeah, I was thinking that the auto "7 strike tiles" at the start of the match would be really bad with passive damage dealers...  I was thinking Medusa and Carol for auto-buffing, just because that's who I've seen the most of recently.  Carnage is even more evil, though.

If "10% usage" is the threshold for nerfing a character (see OML discussion for that) then we should see a few characters get whacked at the start of next season.

sambrookjm

An update:  Nine days left in this season.  I'm sitting at 1500 pts in the Simulator, and here are the five teams that are available for me to fight.  None of these are retaliatory fights, and everyone in all of these fights is champed:

Peggy, Wasp, Carol
Carol, Peggy, Wasp
Peggy, IM40, Jean Grey
Peggy, Carol, Medusa
Medusa, Carol, Carnage

Skipping the Medusa, Carol Carnage one (all 20+ LVLs above my char) brings me to a fight with Peggy, IM40 and a LVL 375 OML...when my highest character is a LVL 300 OML, followed by a LVL 287 X-Force Wolverine.  Skipping *that* one beings me to the first non-Peggy/Carol fight of the day - Charlie's Angels.

Bowgentle

That's better than 5* land.
Nodes there consist of nothing but Thanos / Panther / other champed 5.

Thanks, devs.