The disappointment that is the "Suggestions and feedback" subforum

Skrofa · May 2017

I used to enjoy visiting and sometimes posting in that subforum.
As of late, however, I find myself to be quite reluctant to click that link.
Why? Because there are SO MANY great suggestions by players about how the game should progress and move forward!

But, that's a good thing, right?

Well, despite the reassurance we got that our suggestions are being read, we have none that they will/might/could be implemented.

I get it that each suggestion should take into consideration both sides of the game. Namely, player satisfaction and company's profit. However, many of the suggestions given might not directly increase profits, but player satisfaction will most definitely help in that regard in the long-term.

Happy customers do tend to come back for more by my experience.

That said, that subforum could have a much better and more constructive view.

Devs could drop by and say something like
"Hey boys and girls, we are thinking to do this and this for this character/event. What's your take on this idea?"

Now, OBVIOUSLY there will be a lot of unusable feedback BUT amidst that there will certainly be a lot of good, constructive arguments, tweaks and so on.

The devs don't spend as much time playing the game as we do! Players seem to understand the intricacies of the game much better than the designers, which is... quite normal actually.

Try to listen to us! Try to ask us! There are plenty of people with great ideas here!

The vaulting system could be in the works for a month or two before its implementation. My suggestion? Give us a reasonable amount of time to discuss matters with you and then implement based off of that feedback!

Implementing and then reacting months later is not good practice now is it?

blargrx · May 2017

Same, it makes me sad to visit that sub section and see all the great potential ideas... it just serves as a reminder of how much better the game could be

Punisher5784 · May 2017

Agreed. I just don't think the devs realize that a majority of the forum users are actually adults with professional careers. There are alot of technical, accounting, and other business type players who actually do think about both sides. We all understand the game needs to make money so yes I wish they would listen to us a bit more. Even if they say "Great idea, it could take ___ amount of time" then fine.

Steellatch · May 2017

I sold part of my first company on shark tank but with they listen to my advice on the store pricing? Not a chance.

sinnerjfl · May 2017

They read it (allegedly) but never bother replying... it honestly feels like a waste of time posting there, can't they just assign someone to read those ideas once a week and replying? That would not even take an hour...

Or you know, If I were to be more cynical, they just really don't care about our ideas (i.e. vaulting) and they'll keep on doing whatever the hell they want as they tend to do.

Wumpushunter · May 2017

If the the suggestion isn't: I got a great store/vault idea that will make real cash they don't care.

TPF Alexis · May 2017

I kind of wish the Devs would take a look at how Games Workshop has started doing things. For years, they were insular, didn't pay attention to customers, no interaction, just did what they did. Over the last couple of years, they've opened way up, and started communicating far more, getting feedback before major changes from some of the top level players/organizers, all that sort of thing, and it's totally revitalized the community and interest in their Games. I've never seen the 40K blogosphere or forums so positive since the company actually started paying attention, even if the results aren't always what everyone wanted.

Seriously, the game updates, the constant bugs, the balance issues, the resulting atmosphere on the forums, it all reminds me so much of being involved with 40K before GW opened up.

JHawkInc · May 2017

Wumpushunter said:

If the the suggestion isn't: I got a great store/vault idea that will make real cash they don't care.

That's why some suggestions like "colorless covers" aren't going to happen. The bind where you've got a character at 5/5/2 and one of the first two covers on the vine and are tempted to spend resources to acquire that 13th cover? That's good for them. RNG is part of the business model, because people are inclined to spend to get extra chances or to mitigate "bad luck", you know?

Some suggestions are decent ideas, but then you get "more free stuff for the players" that doesn't consider the business model, and thus will probably never be seriously considered by the devs.

JamieMadrox · May 2017

In my opinion, the devs don't post on the forums because when they do the community treats them like garbage. Stop fostering such a toxic online environment and their participation may increase.

**Edited to reflect that this statement is my own opinion and not an official stance of Demiurge or D3 GO!.**

Bowgentle · May 2017

Jamie Madrox said:

Devs don't post on the forums because when they do the community treats them like garbage. Stop fostering such a toxic online environment and their participation may increase.

Yeah, that's the official line.

However, I don't remember Kabir or Anthony being treated like garbage when they were posting a few months ago.

So it's a bit of a vicious circle - lack of communication fosters a toxic environment which keeps the devs from posting.

mpqr7 · May 2017

I think in general the majority of us treat Brigby quite well. We are appreciative of all his posts and the information he provides, even if we don't always agree with everything that is stated. We appreciate all of the open communication and updates.

Bowgentle · May 2017

mpqr7 said:

I think in general the majority of us treat Brigby quite well. We are appreciative of all his posts and the information he provides, even if we don't always agree with everything that is stated. We appreciate all of the open communication and updates.

Brigby is not a developer.

sinnerjfl · May 2017

Jamie Madrox said:

Devs don't post on the forums because when they do the community treats them like garbage. Stop fostering such a toxic online environment and their participation may increase.

I wonder why the community react how it does... maybe its the general attitude of the devs to not listen to anything and keep pushing their ideas no matter how much people dislike them.

Its not even a dialogue so it might be for the best they dont post anymore.

It gets quite old reading "we really value your feedback" yet most of it goes totally ignored... even simple things that would never affect their bottom line (say, a remove all boosts button!).

If you dont want to engage your user base and this is/should be a part of your job, that's on them. Not on the users, and this only fosters the negativity around here towards the devs.

JamieMadrox · May 2017

sinnerjfl said:

Jamie Madrox said:

Devs don't post on the forums because when they do the community treats them like garbage. Stop fostering such a toxic online environment and their participation may increase.

I wonder why the community react how it does... maybe its the general attitude of the devs to not listen to anything and keep pushing their ideas no matter how much people dislike them.

Its not even a dialogue so it might be for the best they dont post anymore.

It gets quite old reading "we really value your feedback" yet most of it goes totally ignored... even simple things that would never affect their bottom line (say, a remove all boosts button!).

If you dont want to engage your user base and this is/should be a part of your job, that's on them. Not on the users, and this only fosters the negativity around here towards the devs.

A few things here:

You assume that the devs don't listen. Not implementing every suggestion doesn't mean they're not listening.

There's no way that every suggestion could be responded to by a dev. They're busy developing the game.

It's actually @Brigby who has the job of interacting with the playerbase. The dev's jobs are to develop the game.

That said, I agree with the sentiment that more dev involvement would decrease the toxicity of the forums.

Partyof5 · May 2017

Customer satisfaction is not as important to them as customer addiction. RNG + addiction is how they make their money.

Jaedenkaal · May 2017

They don't reply to suggestions or feedback individually because of the precedent that would set:

"My idea with no red name comments is obviously a bad idea compared to the 3 that I found that have red name replies." So now they have to reply to every idea, even the ideas that A) They've already had and B ) are the same as an idea they've already commented on.

So now every suggestion gets a red name comment. But now, some of the comments are more positive than other comments. Clearly there's blatant favoritism going on because this other guy always gets good red name feedback on his feedback, and I only get "thanks". So now they have to just use a scripted message to reply to everyone's feedback that amounts to "thanks for your feedback, we read it"

So now every feedback thread has the identical red name reply. So within a day someone claims that the devs have made a bot that just goes through the forum and auto-replies to every thread, and that no one is actually reading the suggestions. That thread quickly spirals out of control into 50+ pages of negativity, things get said, mistakes get made, people get banned, and everyone is unhappy.

So then they stop posting in the suggestions at all.

JHawkInc · May 2017

It would be nice to see a spin, like the DEVS post a suggestion, and we give feedback. Like some of the surveys they've sent out about new modes and stores and characters, just do it on the forums, you know?

MissChinch · May 2017

I think it would be worthwhile to find out a few things first:

1- (total unique forums accounts that have posted in the last month) / (total unique active users of the application)

2- Gross sales of HC, gross sales of ISO, gross sales of health packs, gross sales of VIP membership

Sure, folks with the right background here could make educated assumptions on whats more or less feasible (though never underestimate how "tinykittied" a code base or change management can get) but I would assume that it'll be extremely apparent from the information above that having "design by open web forum" isn't cost effective.

Communication could be better, Brigby does a good job, but I think the expectation people seem to have would require someone more active in the design phase than what Brigby seems to be... Not a knock on him, if its not a full time job herding this kaka, its a full time annoyance equivalent.

Khanwulf · May 2017

In the business world the most valuable feedback you can get, because it is so hard to obtain, is detailed customer feedback. The effort (i.e. money) required for canvassing or focus groups or other surveying forms is incredible--enough so it sustains an entire marketing sub-industry.

For D3 GO! and Demiurge they have these forums. It's a quick and easy way to post communication, but like most companies it is not used to full potential. Here you have a community of individuals who engross themselves as players into the product more than the developers do, form astute observations regarding how the systems of the game work to create its play experience, and in many cases lie awake at night pondering how to make it better--generally, not just for themselves. As compensation, the community can be paid in "attaboys", which any manager knows are very inexpensive, plus some genuine attention to massaging issues raised and the back-and-forth with the devs.

That's a resource, but one it's not hard to squander.

Ignore issues, plow ahead with your plan in the face of challenges, and produce New and Better like rabbits from a hat and pretty soon your community seethes with distrust and disappointment. Sure, your purchase metrics may be ok, but long-term health is signaled by your community in any MMO--or game that demands a similar time investment. As MPQ does.

On the contrary: A) identify the key issues in the game, B ) communicate that list to the community (and why), C) elaborate the path to resolving them, D) thank the community for its contributions and E) flag how the community has made the game better in Dev work--well do these things on a continuous revolving basis and you have both supercharged your community and added its value to your own product. You may give up a tad of revenue here or there in order to reap long-term benefits... and if you license and IP supports a strategy of that sort, as MPQ's does, that is a wise business choice.

@Brigby, who deserves a hug daily, has a specific job to do--primarily B and D; he also posts news and rarely, item C. That's what's within D3's power to provide. Demiurge has to pick up the slack, as they're doing the actual code and art work. That means someone in Demiurge has to own their list of issues, relate it to what the community has said are their priorities (and why), they have to make those issues part of the development process and be able to say where they are on that process. They have to be able to hack a crisis when things don't work out, and elaborate how the crisis is going to be resolved, when. They have to own this kind of thing because Brigby can't. It's not his job.

They have to be able, after the fact, to point to change X or Y and say "yeah this came from the community, because you're awesome and we made it our own! Together!" It's even better if they can honestly say "you know we could have charged for this kind of thing, but we made Bob from Marketing cry a bit and did it for free/cheap because you're awesome and it'll make this game hum better in a year. Buy more HP for that other thing that's cool, tho. Peace out."

The business metric runs that a dissatisfied customer tells at least 18 people how **** your product and/or service is. A happy one tells 11 others. This axiom is probably out of date in the internet age, where reviews are both sought after and impactful. Community members left in the oubliette of the forums by themselves gnaw on the bones of whatever scraps are thrown in, to try and understand if the game is still fun. Still worth the hour or two a day it demands. To understand if their hundreds or thousands of dollars of investment have made them such fools as they fear.

It's really not hard to shine a light, toss red meat, and keep them happy. Because otherwise when next the lid opens and Brigby is lowered down everyone is sorely tempted to jump for 'im. Teeth out.

--Khanwulf

PS. I've seen the same dynamics at work for more than 17 years of MMOs. Nothing is new under the sun, but keeping the communication going, well, pays huge dividends even if what the community is being told isn't their first choice. It take work on the part of the Devs, however, and work that they don't think is their first priority. But it's critical.

Jarvind · May 2017

I look at the feedback forum like a fountain that people toss coins into and make wishes. Yeah, you might get what you asked for, but even if you do, you'll never have any way of knowing if your coin made any difference.

Partyof5 said:

Customer satisfaction is not as important to them as customer addiction. RNG + addiction is how they make their money.

Man, I want to disagree with this, but it's kinda hard, particularly given how many F2P games openly embrace the "pay us or go pound sand" model.

Eichen · May 2017

"It's actually @Brigby who has the job of interacting with the playerbase. The dev's jobs are to develop the game."

I agree that Brigby is the one that is supposed to interact with the playerbase but the Suggestion and Feedback section should be monitored by a Dev. They are the ones developing the game they should see the suggestions first hand. A suggestion could be really simple and only take a line of code and make a whole lot of people happy. Brigby won't know what is easy to do and what is hard to code. A suggestion could go right along with something that is already being worked on and integrated in easily but Brigby wouldn't know to pass that one idea on.

The disappointment that is the "Suggestions and feedback" subforum

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