Thoughts On Nerfing Rishkar's Expertise

System
System Posts: 1,032 Chairperson of the Boards
in MtGPQ General Discussion
This discussion was created from comments split from: A Breath of Fresh Air.
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  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    Out of curiosity, how is everyone planning to feel when the developers realize they made a horrible mistake and Nerf Rishkar's Expertise into the ground?
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    Same as how we feel now with a overnerfed Baral. A big fat "I told you so."  
  • PastrySpider
    PastrySpider Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    I had a thread on this before and rough consensus there was that it should provide half the green gems it currently does.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Mainloop25 said:
    Same as how we feel now with a overnerfed Baral. A big fat "I told you so."  
    "Over-nerfed," how so? Just curious as to your take. OT, I feel that the nerf for this card is not so much that it exists on its own, but the fact that other similar cards exist that would create a massive hike in mana generation when coupled with Rishkar's "Pwnage"

  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't think the removal of having him give 5 mana to every spell in your hand on casting was necessary. Even giving spells 3 mana in your hand on casting is fine. But now he's not a ton better than Voracious Reader. 
  • morgue427
    morgue427 Posts: 783 Critical Contributor
    it is just another gem changer honestly that the ai wont work properly just actual people will really i think so it my be much ado about nothing i think
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just nerf the card.. I've seen the first reports of what it is capable of - might be worse than Baral in the right deck.
  • THEMAGICkMAN
    THEMAGICkMAN Posts: 697 Critical Contributor
    Laeuftbeidir said:
    Just nerf the card.. I've seen the first reports of what it is capable of - might be worse than Baral in the right deck.
    Nuuuu don't it's so fun! 
  • Phase
    Phase Posts: 157 Tile Toppler
    The AI is notoriously bad at playing gem conversion. Let's see if it's a problem in PVP before throwing the book at it.

    I'm on the record as saying the card is too strong. Half the gem conversion would be too harsh a nerf, however .
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    Actually I have a feeling it would still feel very strong at half the gem conversion. 
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    morgue427 said:
    it is just another gem changer honestly that the ai wont work properly just actual people will really i think so it my be much ado about nothing i think
    You may have a point, with the way RatC 2.2 plays it, a lot of us didn't even know it had the card. It's going to make Kiora that much better, as if green needed any more ramp... 
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    It's really powerful but it's partly capped by the fact that you can't use it to its full power early in the game. Having to wait till your hand is full or near-full also limits its synergies with some cards (though still very much useable otherwise) though making it a really good complement for cards like Rashmi or Harness the Storm.

    Amazing for Kiora of course with her Blue draw. But the other planeswalkers will need solid draw to make good use of Rishkar's Expertise.

    Still I feel like a nerf to it is in the best interests of the game. Considering it's a pure ramp spell, possibly nerf it to convert 5+X gems where X is the number of cards in hand times 2 might be better. That way it is still a very strong mythic card but not as insane as it is now.
  • Gormhaus
    Gormhaus Posts: 190 Tile Toppler
    Pretty sure rhis card woyld be useful on round 1 or any other round after that.
  • THEMAGICkMAN
    THEMAGICkMAN Posts: 697 Critical Contributor
    Gormhaus said:
    Pretty sure rhis card woyld be useful on round 1 or any other round after that.
    Actually you'd be surprised. Casting it turn 1 really doesn't do much. It helps your opponent more than you, you really gotta have at least 4 cards in hand when you cast it or it's pretty lackluster.
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    You start with 2 cards, and cast it leaving one card in hand. 

    That's not nearly as useful as when you have 4 cards in hand. 
  • Gormhaus
    Gormhaus Posts: 190 Tile Toppler
    You get loyalty as well as mana. I hear some of the loyalty powers of planes walkers are pretty good.
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    Ohboy said:
    You start with 2 cards, and cast it leaving one card in hand. 

    That's not nearly as useful as when you have 4 cards in hand. 
    Don't forget you draw one at the start of the turn so when you cast RE, you have 2 cards in hand for a conversion of 8 Green gems... Which is still way off the card's potential, agreed.
    Gormhaus said:
    You get loyalty as well as mana. I hear some of the loyalty powers of planes walkers are pretty good.
    Yes but 8 gems converted isn't going to gain you a lot of loyalty. Probably 0-2 on average with the max limit depending on the blessings of RNGesus. You're better off waiting 2 or 3 turns more to cast it with double the effect. Also not casting anything for 2 to 3 turns early on can hurt your board state depending on your build.

    Of course if you RE into Prism Array then Day's Undoing for your starting hand chaining into a Fertile Thicket triggering Prism Array followed by second RE casting out the rest of your hand or chaining into another Day's Undoing for the same antics then yeah RE was solid in that situation.
  • THEMAGICkMAN
    THEMAGICkMAN Posts: 697 Critical Contributor
    span_argoman said:

    Of course if you RE into Prism Array then Day's Undoing for your starting hand chaining into a Fertile Thicket triggering Prism Array followed by second RE casting out the rest of your hand or chaining into another Day's Undoing for the same antics then yeah RE was solid in that situation.
    Did this actually happen to you? sounds like the dream. If we ever get a G/B walker imagine Rishkars Expertise with BtB? THAT would need a nerf.
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor

    Massive ramp cycle decks already exist.  Inject RishkarEx into the cycle and it gets even more ridiculous.

    You won't see much resistance until people experience the AI spinning around in circles for 10 minutes in PVP events.  Then you will see the mass cry for nerf.

  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    THEMAGICkMAN said:
    span_argoman said:

    Of course if you RE into Prism Array then Day's Undoing for your starting hand chaining into a Fertile Thicket triggering Prism Array followed by second RE casting out the rest of your hand or chaining into another Day's Undoing for the same antics then yeah RE was solid in that situation.
    Did this actually happen to you? sounds like the dream. If we ever get a G/B walker imagine Rishkars Expertise with BtB? THAT would need a nerf.
    No not yet, but my pre-RE Kiora deck could already do something similar though only after being set up. Day's Undoing into Fertile Thicket into Animist's Awakening into Nissa's Renewal (with or without Part the Waterveil's assistance) which can cast stuff and chain into another Nissa's Renewal further down the hand or freshly drawn from Prism Array.

    A more consistent first turn combo involving Day's Undoing is Fertile Thicket into Day's Undoing. That's a single Blue/Green match for Kiora into a single Green free match from Fertile Thicket for Day's Undoing to fire (total 12 mana).
     
    RE just has the potential to cut out some of the middlemen lol. But its ability to propagate chains will be more restricted by the number of cards left in hand when it casts than Nissa's Renewal though at much cheaper cost.

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