Point thresholds for awarding required essential chars in PVE

MarkersMake

New McG said:

 
To take your MMO example and try and spin it. I played WoW for a long time. When you got to the level cap, and wanted to raid and compete for the best stuff, you couldn't just jump into something like Molten Core (basically the first end-game raid) as soon as you hit the cap. You had to go gear up to even enter the instance (for example, playing events without getting the highest end rewards as you build your roster up in MPQ), and even after you were properly geared (had built your roster and covered them) then you had hours and hours of throwing yourself at it before you got your real payoff, which was gear (or in our case, the top tier placement rewards). There wasn't any skirting of those steps, unless you got dragged through content above your level by someone who was way ahead of you on the curve. (Not an option here.) There was a lot of busy work, with not a lot of reward for doing it, just to have the chance to try the high-end stuff.

Not everything is supposed to be easy, and not everything is meant for everyone in every single event. If you don't have an essential character for an event? Well, grind out the cover, place where you can, and you'll have it from the get-go next time they come around. It sucks when I look at the handful of people ahead of me in most PVE events and see mostly people with rosters way higher than mine. Is that fair? Absolutely. They have better characters, so they can beat things faster than I can, so they get more points. That doesn't mean they should change the game to accommodate me, just because others have spent more time and/or money and have better characters than I do, and I want to be able to play on the same tier they do in every event.

If real life gets in the way on a character release and I can't grab a 4* immediately, I'm out of luck on the next event, but that cover is there, and I've got it for the future. Oh well. Any single event isn't the end of the world. Characters come and go as rewards. I won't get them all, and I don't expect to. Maybe more people need to realize such a thing and settle down.

Than you for replying to my MMORPG example with an identical MMORPG example. Yes, that is precisely how it works (did you not realize that many of your WoW guildies were EQ veterans? Where do you think they learned how to raid?), and it is absolute gaming death for new players. 

But thank you for being the old man who says "I went through it, they should have to as well", and missing the point entirely.  I'll just get off your lawn and move on with my day.

Punisher5784

Wow.. this is alot to read.. I'm not gonna hop on what an average roster is but my suggestion would be to have the next essential character as the progression reward in the previous PvE so the next one you fight for placement of more covers.

For instance, currently Riri is placement and will be essential for the next PvE. Instead Nova should be placement and Riri should be 4* progression. Then next event Riri is placement and the next 4* is progression. That would alleviate most of the complaints and frustration. 

Spudgutter

MarkersMake said:

New McG said:

 
To take your MMO example and try and spin it. I played WoW for a long time. When you got to the level cap, and wanted to raid and compete for the best stuff, you couldn't just jump into something like Molten Core (basically the first end-game raid) as soon as you hit the cap. You had to go gear up to even enter the instance (for example, playing events without getting the highest end rewards as you build your roster up in MPQ), and even after you were properly geared (had built your roster and covered them) then you had hours and hours of throwing yourself at it before you got your real payoff, which was gear (or in our case, the top tier placement rewards). There wasn't any skirting of those steps, unless you got dragged through content above your level by someone who was way ahead of you on the curve. (Not an option here.) There was a lot of busy work, with not a lot of reward for doing it, just to have the chance to try the high-end stuff.

Not everything is supposed to be easy, and not everything is meant for everyone in every single event. If you don't have an essential character for an event? Well, grind out the cover, place where you can, and you'll have it from the get-go next time they come around. It sucks when I look at the handful of people ahead of me in most PVE events and see mostly people with rosters way higher than mine. Is that fair? Absolutely. They have better characters, so they can beat things faster than I can, so they get more points. That doesn't mean they should change the game to accommodate me, just because others have spent more time and/or money and have better characters than I do, and I want to be able to play on the same tier they do in every event.

If real life gets in the way on a character release and I can't grab a 4* immediately, I'm out of luck on the next event, but that cover is there, and I've got it for the future. Oh well. Any single event isn't the end of the world. Characters come and go as rewards. I won't get them all, and I don't expect to. Maybe more people need to realize such a thing and settle down.

Than you for replying to my MMORPG example with an identical MMORPG example. Yes, that is precisely how it works (did you not realize that many of your WoW guildies were EQ veterans? Where do you think they learned how to raid?), and it is absolute gaming death for new players. 

But thank you for being the old man who says "I went through it, they should have to as well", and missing the point entirely.  I'll just get off your lawn and move on with my day.

I think the main problem most of us are having (myself included) is the lack of perspective. By meeting the previously stated definition of an average player, all of us posting here are probably average or above average

I said it in the other thread, I can appreciate the fact that it is not cool, but after 1225 days of play, I can also accept it and move on. There are legit problems that (in my opinion) should be addressed, and some that can be ignored for now. 

As for my anecdotal evidence of how what new players think of the game: my 14 yr old started playing a few weeks ago. I think he said he is in CL 4 for versus events, and he loves the game. He has several 3*, a couple 4* that he got from heroics, and he tells me how much fun he is having. You know what he doesn't complain about?  Not being able to complete certain nodes. 

NewMcG

MarkersMake said:

New McG said:

 
To take your MMO example and try and spin it. I played WoW for a long time. When you got to the level cap, and wanted to raid and compete for the best stuff, you couldn't just jump into something like Molten Core (basically the first end-game raid) as soon as you hit the cap. You had to go gear up to even enter the instance (for example, playing events without getting the highest end rewards as you build your roster up in MPQ), and even after you were properly geared (had built your roster and covered them) then you had hours and hours of throwing yourself at it before you got your real payoff, which was gear (or in our case, the top tier placement rewards). There wasn't any skirting of those steps, unless you got dragged through content above your level by someone who was way ahead of you on the curve. (Not an option here.) There was a lot of busy work, with not a lot of reward for doing it, just to have the chance to try the high-end stuff.

Not everything is supposed to be easy, and not everything is meant for everyone in every single event. If you don't have an essential character for an event? Well, grind out the cover, place where you can, and you'll have it from the get-go next time they come around. It sucks when I look at the handful of people ahead of me in most PVE events and see mostly people with rosters way higher than mine. Is that fair? Absolutely. They have better characters, so they can beat things faster than I can, so they get more points. That doesn't mean they should change the game to accommodate me, just because others have spent more time and/or money and have better characters than I do, and I want to be able to play on the same tier they do in every event.

If real life gets in the way on a character release and I can't grab a 4* immediately, I'm out of luck on the next event, but that cover is there, and I've got it for the future. Oh well. Any single event isn't the end of the world. Characters come and go as rewards. I won't get them all, and I don't expect to. Maybe more people need to realize such a thing and settle down.

Than you for replying to my MMORPG example with an identical MMORPG example. Yes, that is precisely how it works (did you not realize that many of your WoW guildies were EQ veterans? Where do you think they learned how to raid?), and it is absolute gaming death for new players. 

But thank you for being the old man who says "I went through it, they should have to as well", and missing the point entirely.  I'll just get off your lawn and move on with my day.

Except the process is still there for people who want to be "top-end" players to this day. I haven't played WoW in years, but I wouldn't just jump in and immediately run a character to the cap and say "well, get me in that raid". There's still a process to being among the top tier in different games, and in MPQ it requires a slow build of a roster unless you plan on jumping in and dropping thousands of dollars on tokens to build a roster without playing anything. People don't go from "barely hitting the middle progression rewards" to "top 10/top 50 player" overnight.

MarkersMake

New McG said:

MarkersMake said:

New McG said:

 
To take your MMO example and try and spin it. I played WoW for a long time. When you got to the level cap, and wanted to raid and compete for the best stuff, you couldn't just jump into something like Molten Core (basically the first end-game raid) as soon as you hit the cap. You had to go gear up to even enter the instance (for example, playing events without getting the highest end rewards as you build your roster up in MPQ), and even after you were properly geared (had built your roster and covered them) then you had hours and hours of throwing yourself at it before you got your real payoff, which was gear (or in our case, the top tier placement rewards). There wasn't any skirting of those steps, unless you got dragged through content above your level by someone who was way ahead of you on the curve. (Not an option here.) There was a lot of busy work, with not a lot of reward for doing it, just to have the chance to try the high-end stuff.

Not everything is supposed to be easy, and not everything is meant for everyone in every single event. If you don't have an essential character for an event? Well, grind out the cover, place where you can, and you'll have it from the get-go next time they come around. It sucks when I look at the handful of people ahead of me in most PVE events and see mostly people with rosters way higher than mine. Is that fair? Absolutely. They have better characters, so they can beat things faster than I can, so they get more points. That doesn't mean they should change the game to accommodate me, just because others have spent more time and/or money and have better characters than I do, and I want to be able to play on the same tier they do in every event.

If real life gets in the way on a character release and I can't grab a 4* immediately, I'm out of luck on the next event, but that cover is there, and I've got it for the future. Oh well. Any single event isn't the end of the world. Characters come and go as rewards. I won't get them all, and I don't expect to. Maybe more people need to realize such a thing and settle down.

Than you for replying to my MMORPG example with an identical MMORPG example. Yes, that is precisely how it works (did you not realize that many of your WoW guildies were EQ veterans? Where do you think they learned how to raid?), and it is absolute gaming death for new players. 

But thank you for being the old man who says "I went through it, they should have to as well", and missing the point entirely.  I'll just get off your lawn and move on with my day.

Except the process is still there for people who want to be "top-end" players to this day. I haven't played WoW in years, but I wouldn't just jump in and immediately run a character to the cap and say "well, get me in that raid". There's still a process to being among the top tier in different games, and in MPQ it requires a slow build of a roster unless you plan on jumping in and dropping thousands of dollars on tokens to build a roster without playing anything. People don't go from "barely hitting the middle progression rewards" to "top 10/top 50 player" overnight.

Right. But coming top 50 or top 10 in a PvE is NOT being in the top tier of players. Yes, it's a single high result, but as you said, roster building is a long process and one cover does not make you a top tier player overnight. Nor does winning 3 covers. Just like winning the Gauntlets of Awesomeness does not make a newbie character elite - it helps a bit, but it takes a lot of repetition before he's actually a high end character. 

And even if all that were true, giving a single cover of the essential character to a new roster before that event starts is NOT going to let them clear the nodes in any kind of top 10 time.  The rest of their roster is just too weak to clear everything as fast as a higher end roster. 

PVP, in case you didn't know, is the raid equivalent in MPQ. PVE is group-based content. And the placement/progression cover reward order is an artificial roadblock d3 placed there to prevent people from reaching the end of the end game too quickly.... When 4*s were the end game.

But they're not end game anymore, and that roadblock isn't needed anymore either. 

Killians8

The problem here isn't the progression design at all. It's ridiculous expectations to be able to play everything without doing the meta-progression through months of progress and earning those covers when your resources and roster warrant it. 

I toiled for several months before being able to access the extra 3* and 4* nodes and it was a joy whenever I finally had events where I had all three essentials. Don't underestimate the loss achievement earned by this "gimme gimme" perspective. 

For once D3 isn't the problem here, it's feelings of entitlement and lack of discipline.

NewMcG

Killians8 said:

The problem here isn't the progression design at all. It's ridiculous expectations to be able to play everything without doing the meta-progression through months of progress and earning those covers when your resources and roster warrant it. 

I toiled for several months before being able to access the extra 3* and 4* nodes and it was a joy whenever I finally had events where I had all three essentials. Don't underestimate the loss achievement earned by this "gimme gimme" perspective. 

For once D3 isn't the problem here, it's feelings of entitlement and lack of discipline.

"But I've been playing three whole months, why can't I compete with people who have put literally thousands of hours of playtime into the game? This is outrageous!"

MarkersMake

/shrug, I am only missing twelve 4*s (mostly lower tier) and five 5*s. I've finished t10 the last few PvE events, and I have 4 of my missing 12 4* covers in queue. 

So I'm arguing in favour of something that I really don't need. What's my motivation? 

DaveR4470

The simple fix is making the new char an essential in the SECOND PvE after the intro; i.e. after the PvE where the char is awarded as a progression award.

NewMcG

DaveR4470 said:

The simple fix is making the new char an essential in the SECOND PvE after the intro; i.e. after the PvE where the char is awarded as a progression award.

That would no doubt spawn a cacophony of "what, now I have to play another event BEFORE they're featured to get the new character? What if I can't play that one? This is garbage! Where's my free featured 4* after the first match of their featured event, that's the fair way!" (These things write themselves.)

MarkersMake

New McG said:

Killians8 said:

The problem here isn't the progression design at all. It's ridiculous expectations to be able to play everything without doing the meta-progression through months of progress and earning those covers when your resources and roster warrant it. 

I toiled for several months before being able to access the extra 3* and 4* nodes and it was a joy whenever I finally had events where I had all three essentials. Don't underestimate the loss achievement earned by this "gimme gimme" perspective. 

For once D3 isn't the problem here, it's feelings of entitlement and lack of discipline.

"But I've been playing three whole months, why can't I compete with people who have put literally thousands of hours of playtime into the game? This is outrageous!"

Good wording here. 

Why can't new players *compete*? I'm not asking you to hand them the win - just to be able to compete roster vs roster against everyone else and see who comes out on top. 

The winners of the previous PVE presumably already have a stronger roster. They won the last event, there's probably a 90% chance they'll win this one too, because they have a strong roster. 

So why do they also need a 2-4 day (depending on the length of the event) head start on that essential node too? Who is entitled here, exactly? 

Spudgutter

MarkersMake said:

New McG said:

Killians8 said:

The problem here isn't the progression design at all. It's ridiculous expectations to be able to play everything without doing the meta-progression through months of progress and earning those covers when your resources and roster warrant it. 

I toiled for several months before being able to access the extra 3* and 4* nodes and it was a joy whenever I finally had events where I had all three essentials. Don't underestimate the loss achievement earned by this "gimme gimme" perspective. 

For once D3 isn't the problem here, it's feelings of entitlement and lack of discipline.

"But I've been playing three whole months, why can't I compete with people who have put literally thousands of hours of playtime into the game? This is outrageous!"

Good wording here. 

Why can't new players *compete*? I'm not asking you to hand them the win - just to be able to compete roster vs roster against everyone else and see who comes out on top. 

The winners of the previous PVE presumably already have a stronger roster. They won the last event, there's probably a 90% chance they'll win this one too, because they have a strong roster. 

So why do they also need a 2-4 day (depending on the length of the event) head start on that essential node too? Who is entitled here, exactly? 

They already do compete. How many times have people brought up the fact that people with lesser rosters place higher then them?  Or the discussions on soft capping? 

Due to the way brackets work, scaling, etc. it can be a crapshoot for some people. But if you follow the meta, put in the time, and maybe get some lucky token pulls, you are going to do well. This game is a marathon, not a sprint, and the argument can be made just as easily for those that put in that extra effort should get a little extra out if it. 

NewMcG

MarkersMake said:

New McG said:

Killians8 said:

The problem here isn't the progression design at all. It's ridiculous expectations to be able to play everything without doing the meta-progression through months of progress and earning those covers when your resources and roster warrant it. 

I toiled for several months before being able to access the extra 3* and 4* nodes and it was a joy whenever I finally had events where I had all three essentials. Don't underestimate the loss achievement earned by this "gimme gimme" perspective. 

For once D3 isn't the problem here, it's feelings of entitlement and lack of discipline.

"But I've been playing three whole months, why can't I compete with people who have put literally thousands of hours of playtime into the game? This is outrageous!"

Good wording here. 

Why can't new players *compete*? I'm not asking you to hand them the win - just to be able to compete roster vs roster against everyone else and see who comes out on top. 

The winners of the previous PVE presumably already have a stronger roster. They won the last event, there's probably a 90% chance they'll win this one too, because they have a strong roster. 

So why do they also need a 2-4 day (depending on the length of the event) head start on that essential node too? Who is entitled here, exactly? 

If one team doesn't have that person rostered, then when they go "roster to roster" as you put it, well, the person who does have that character will be at a benefit. Consider it a "veteran's bonus" for their time put in. 

I play Hearthstone very sporadically. My deck and roster of cards is light years behind even decent players. If I want more and better cards, I'd have to play a lot more. I don't, and I also don't expect to be able to constantly compete with people who put in way more dedicated chunks of time to build their decks up.

MarkersMake

Spudgutter said:

MarkersMake said:

New McG said:

Killians8 said:

The problem here isn't the progression design at all. It's ridiculous expectations to be able to play everything without doing the meta-progression through months of progress and earning those covers when your resources and roster warrant it. 

I toiled for several months before being able to access the extra 3* and 4* nodes and it was a joy whenever I finally had events where I had all three essentials. Don't underestimate the loss achievement earned by this "gimme gimme" perspective. 

For once D3 isn't the problem here, it's feelings of entitlement and lack of discipline.

"But I've been playing three whole months, why can't I compete with people who have put literally thousands of hours of playtime into the game? This is outrageous!"

Good wording here. 

Why can't new players *compete*? I'm not asking you to hand them the win - just to be able to compete roster vs roster against everyone else and see who comes out on top. 

The winners of the previous PVE presumably already have a stronger roster. They won the last event, there's probably a 90% chance they'll win this one too, because they have a strong roster. 

So why do they also need a 2-4 day (depending on the length of the event) head start on that essential node too? Who is entitled here, exactly? 

They already do compete. How many times have people brought up the fact that people with lesser rosters place higher then them?  Or the discussions on soft capping? 

Due to the way brackets work, scaling, etc. it can be a crapshoot for some people. But if you follow the meta, put in the time, and maybe get some lucky token pulls, you are going to do well. This game is a marathon, not a sprint, and the argument can be made just as easily for those that put in that extra effort should get a little extra out if it. 

They do - they win an extra cover. You want them to get two extras: the extra cover, plus a head start in the next event. 

Keep in mind that the new players DO get the cover, and it is earned, not given away. They just get it too late in the event to be competitive. 

MarkersMake

You guys do know that this all originated in a discussion about vaulted essentials, right? That there is literally no other way to get these covers (champ rewards for some maybe, and bonus heroes technically for others). There are no "lucky token pulls" for these characters. 

You didn't face that restriction. New players will. 

Spudgutter

MarkersMake said:

You guys do know that this all originated in a discussion about vaulted essentials, right? That there is literally no other way to get these covers (champ rewards for some maybe, and bonus heroes technically for others). There are no "lucky token pulls" for these characters. 

You didn't face that restriction. New players will. 

Quote from the op, who was quoting you:
"As has been pointed out, most players are locked out of essential nodes for every single new release. Let's look at the numbers. "

The argument is that the number is too high.  I've been playing for 1225 days, you know how many of those days i played pve before they introduced the 4* reward into progression on the next pve?  You know how many alliances I have seen implode because of the failure to place top 100 in a new release prior to this change? I would argue that having it at all is a great thing, and comes down comfortably somewhere in the middle between entitled and earned, imo.

MarkersMake

No, the argument was that the essential node is an existing example of "gated" content with similar levels of ISO to the essential node in the Star-Lord mini PvE. 

Context is important. 

NewMcG

MarkersMake said:

No, the argument was that the essential node is an existing example of "gated" content with similar levels of ISO to the essential node in the Star-Lord mini PvE. 

Context is important. 

Except the only "gate" that exists for anything beyond new releases is whether or not you've played and earned the covers that have been available through many avenues. Should we now start griping about how unfair it is that people on day 1000+ of the resupply are getting monthly 4* covers and 5* covers every few months when new players are lucky to get 3*s and an odd 4* here and there? Why should they get better benefits just because they've played longer? It doesn't make them more important!

MarkersMake

It was a very specific point, McG. Phumade was arguing that the gating of "non-trivial" rewards behind an essential node was at issue. I was pointing out an existing example of such "gating". 

Again, context. 

Spudgutter

Where the comment came from, sure. So then Phumade made a new post, quoted it, and started this discussion, specifically titling it about the point threshold in pve. 

Context is important, but so is staying on topic. 

Once again, it comes down to personal opinion. I think, compared to how it was when I first started playing, the game does a much better job handing out rewards these days. I think *that* context is important to the conversation.