The problem of defining the General Discussion forum

fight4thedream

In light of the recent controversy involving the appropriateness of J1P's post in the GD, the mod team is currently debating a new set of definitions and guidelines in regards to forum organization. As this is something that will affect the community as a whole, I think it will be worthwhile to open the floor to the community to get a better grasp of how you use the forum and what your expectations are in terms of forum organization and access to information. Obviously, different people will have different views on the matter which is fine and good but I ask that you remember to keep the discussion civil and respectful.

To get the ball rolling, I think it's important we consider why the GD has reached this impasse. As many of you are aware, the GD is the most active and visited section of the forum. I can think of three clear reasons for this (although admittedly there may be more):

1. The GD is the place where all the important announcements are made available to be discussed.
2. The GD is the place where a post is most likely to receive comments and be noticed
3. The GD has an open-ended definition "Come Here To Talk About Any Game Related Topics"

Now let us look over each point:

1. The GD is the place where all the important announcements are made available to be discussed.

Technically, the MPQ News and Announcement forum is the place where a user can access all past news and announcements easiest but that forum is closed for discussion. However, it has been standard practice for as long as I have been a member for such announcements to be open for discussion in the GD. The problem here is that such announcements cover a variety of topics ranging from event announcements and bugs to character re-balances and promotion announcements.

One can assume two reasons for such practice:
1. It centralizes all the important announcements and news
2. Which in turn serves the purpose of ease of use for the general forum goer

You as a user are now able to comment and offer your opinions and feedback on a variety of changes to the game in one easy location.

However, such a system invites a user to believe two things:

1. This is where a red name comes to read the forum and interact with the community
2. That the GD is a good place to post their game related feedback because this is where the action is.

Which leads us to point two:

2. The GD is the place where a post is most likely to receive comments and be noticed

Because of this centralization of latest news and announcements and also because historically speaking red name interaction with the community most often occurs in the GD (save perhaps the Bug forums where Tombstone and Brigby diligently work to address players questions and concerns with in-game bugs) it is naturally assumed that the GD is the best place to have one's voice heard, for better or worse.

Many users consider the Suggestions and Feedback forum a graveyard and not without good reason: the devs do not post there. When the development team asks for feedback such as with the changes to the PvE structure, they do not ask there. So it is assumed that the Suggestions and Feedback forum is not a place where one's feedback will be taken into serious consideration. The negative image of that forum is so strong that Hi-Fi had to post an announcement explicitly stating that feedback is being read there to assure users that they weren't wasting their time.

So for many users the Suggestion and Feedback forum has become the place to post direct feedback that they have little  intention of discussing and the GD has become the place where they seek discussion on the issue.

Which brings me to the third point:

3. The GD has an open-ended definition "Come Here To Talk About Any Game Related Topics"

Since the GD has an open-ended definition it really is up to the user to decide where they wish to post their content. And usually they are left with this choice:

1. I can post in x-forum where there is a possibility my topic may be viewed and discussed but there is a possibility it won't.
2. I can post in the GD where there is a high possibility my topic may be viewed and discussed.

It's difficult to fault a user for picking option number 2, particularly if they are more interested in having their topic discussed than just simply read by the development team. Let's be clear here, under the current definition of the General Discussion they have not posted in an inappropriate place.

Which brings us to the heart of the matter: How should we define the General Discussion? And also equally relevant, how do we increase traffic to other sections of the forum?

Answering the first question is no easy task.  Previously, I had once offered "Come Here To Talk About the Latest News and Trends in MPQ" but that idea was rejected by my fellow mods because they felt it would turn the rest of the forum into an archive of GD posts which I admit it probably would have but I had no particular qualms with.

However, Brigby has made it clear that he would like see increased traffic into other sections of the forum so that idea is now a moot point.

The definition currently under proposal tries to define the GD by what it is not:  General Discussion is appropriate for any topics that are game related and would not fall in to one of the other defined forums. However, I personally find such a definition lacking for three reasons: 1. That is not a proper definition. A simple thought exercise: try defining a duckrabbit by what it is not and you will still be left with no idea what a duckrabbit is. An obvious counter-argument is that the we are negatively defining the GD within a closed system, therefore it should be easy to determine whether a post belongs there or somewhere else. Simply ask yourself two questions: Is this topic game-related? If yes, proceed to MPQ forum. If no, post in off topic. Then is there a forum that exists where this topic would be appropriate; if yes, do not post in GD. If no, post in GD. (Ironically, this topic actually neither belongs in any of the other subforums or GD as it is not game-related but rather about forum adminstration. But since this is an important issue dealing with user experience of the forum prudence demands that I post in the section most likely to be seen by the many. Such is MPQ forum. Note to self and @Brigby: Maybe we should have a publicly accessible administrator's forum where people can discuss forum-related issues?) 


2. It doesn't not address the problem of hybrid posts and those posts that are written with the purpose of seeking discussion on an issue and not intended as "a suggestion or feedback" to the dev team but rather as a topic of discussion among one's peers.

Take for example ZeroKarma's The Unexpected Consequences of OML's Demise thread. It arguably can go into three different subforums:

-Character Discussion: The OP invites others to share their unexpected experiences with the OML nerf.
-Events: The OP also specifically mentions the difficulty they are having with Dr. Strange PvE to which many other posters picked up on and discussed their current strategies for the event
- Suggestions and Feedback: Arguably those consequences are feedback to the dev team about player experience

And yet, here it resides in the GD. It is questionable about how one would categorize such a post under the proposed new definition. 

3. "Come here for any topics that are game related and would not fall in to one of the other defined forums" doesn't have the same pizzazz as the other forum sub-headings. I personally would love it if we changed it to "A place where everybody knows your name" but I doubt that will fly. Maybe "Come here to share your game experiences and ideas with other players"? That's what I usually the GD for although me thinks the other mods might feel "sharing your game experience and ideas" might be code-words for "feedback" and "suggestions" lol.

Which actually leads me to my tangent topic:

General Discussion vs Suggestions and Feedback

Although occasionally on the surface they may appear similar, I do believe there is a distinction between wanting to share your game experience vs offering feedback. The difference lies between the intent of the author and  who the target audience of their post is for. "A sharing your experience" type post is written mainly either to entertain or seek commiseration or validation amongst your peers while a "feedback" post is mainly directed at the dev team to explain your experience, what you liked and didn't like. 

Similarly, an "ideas" post is written mainly to see what other members of the community think as opposed to a "suggestion" which is directed at the devs where you offer what you think will improve the game. I know some of the other mods will think me a sophist for making such a distinction but I do believe this is the crux of the issue:

In general, people view the Suggestions and Feedback forum as the place to give direct feedback to the dev team ("Let us know what you think will make our game better" sans actual dev response) while the General Discussion as the place to discuss their ideas and experiences among their peers. ("Come here to talk..") And seeing how this is a forum, I think it's rather obvious why most users prefer to post in the GD. If you want to discuss your ideas or experiences, the GD is the de facto place for it.

But as previously stated, the mod team is looking for ways to increase user engagement with the other forums.

Possible Solutions

1. Redefine both General Discussion and Suggestions and Feedback
    As I have just shown, while both forums seem to share a similar function, the key distinction is that GD is seen as a place for discussion while S&F is seen as a place to give direct feedback with no expectation of a response from a red name.

2. Decentralize the Discussion of Announcements
    Have the Hot Fixes posted in the Bugs forum, Events information posted in the Events forum, New Character and Rebalance announcements posted in the Character forum and so on. Yes, I am aware this creates more work on the administration end of the forum and will inconvenience a lot of users who are used to having everything centralized but if the goal is to get people to use the other forums and post in appropriate subforums than I do believe this is the best way to achieve that goal.

For those that absolutely must have such announcements in an easy to locate, centralized place direct them to News and Announcements forum and then include a link to the discussion thread in those posts so people will have quick access to the discussion. 

3. Increase support for subforums
  I am sure some of you have noticed but almost all of the compendiums and guides have been ruined by the forum move. I go on vacation next week, so hopefully I will have some more free time to try and help get those back up plus update the FAQ Project (yeah, I know it's horribly outdated) but it makes little sense to try and drive traffic to other subforums in their current state. I feel really bad for those forum maintainers who have spent a lot of time and effort providing the community with some of the best and most helpful information only to see all their hard work go *kaboom*. Not cool.

4.Nuke the GD to Kingdom come!
  Another idea being kicked around by the mod team is to just get rid of the GD altogether. Not really sure how viable or healthy that option would be for the forum but it does beg the question "What is the GD good for?"

Hopefully some of you might have an answer.

revskip

If D3 really wants to decentralize General Discussion the best thing to do would be do away with it entirely.  Make Suggestions and Feedback the main place red names post and users will eventually migrate to the two main forums that will matter, Suggestions and Character Discussions.  

Not sure I'd love that plan since I mainly post in GD and lurk in the other parts of the forum but if they want to increase traffic in the other forums that would be how to do it.  

The big downside to that is that GD is the place where the most negativity exists so siphoning some of those posters into other parts of the forum that are generally helpful spots will now have some of the anti-sunshine, sky is falling crowd join in.  

shobi6669

If they are trying to have announcements go to the appropriate sub-forum instead of GD or they do get rid of GD, I would really appreciate they undertake your suggestion above and have Brigby (or whoever is doing the official announcement posts) gave a link to the thread where discussion can take place since it appears that they do not want any replies in the News and Announcements section.  So a character announcement may direct people to Character Discussion and details on a re-run of a Boss Event may direct readers to discuss in the Events, Tournaments, and Missions section.  I think if they committed to doing that, then it may be okay to get rid of GD altogether, but it may be more work up front in creating the second thread (and maybe even deciding where it should reside).  Just my two cents,

JVReal

Very thorough layout of your thoughts, and I appreciate it.

I think one of the biggest things I consider is the "Discussion" part of GD.  None of the other locations have Discussion in the title, it doesn't mean much, but it does have it's implications.  You want a discussion of any topic, go to General Discussion... you don't go to a form that doesn't currently have active discussion promoted.

"General" to me signifies a one-stop-shop.  General Store... has a little of everything for the people that can't make it to the other more niche locations.  It doesn't necessarily imply that it is only what does not fit elsewhere, but rather a little bit of everything.  I can see it as a starting point, and then eventually the discussion gets moved to the specific forum it fits better into.

The other thing is that it is D3's Forum, therefore it must be led by example.  If they post all their important information in GD, so will everyone else.  If the Admin's use the forum appropriately, then the group is more inclined to go that route.

I go to the Bugs section when I encounter a bug and want to know if I'm the only one experiencing it or not.  Sometimes I've gone there first, only to find that it's being discussed in General instead and carrying on duplicate conversations is redundant, so I join the one that has more interactions which is generally GD.

I never understood why they have an announcement section with locked announcements and then also place them in GD to allow conversation... I would imagine that it would have been the other way around.  Locked announcements in GD, and then you actually discuss them in the announcement section.  That section I'm sure can be locked down to only allow replies to threads and not allow new threads to be created by the general population.

Suggestions and Feedback section:  This would pick up a lot more activity in the Admin team would be allowed to inquire for specific feedback on changes well BEFORE they are implemented.  "We are seeing an inordinate amount of OML use in our stats, before we discuss internally what this may signify to us, why do you feel OML is used so much?" and discussion ensues.
"As a result of your feedback and using that to qualify and filter our data, here is what we found, here is our concern, and here are some of our thoughts on how this data is contrary to our long term goal of (insert goals here)." Discussion ensues.
"Here are the changes that we are considering implementing in the near future" boycott threats, rage quits and hyperbole ensue.

I used to go to the main page first, but now its split with MPQ and MtgPQ and seems too busy for me so I hurry over to General Discussion to filter out the MtgPQ crud.  If I could choose my path first... MPQ or MtgPQ, then I won't feel bombarded instantly with 50% information that I don't care about. EDIT: I just realized I can do just that... one thing fixed! yay!

My browser (Firefox) gives me a quick "Most commonly used" links when I open a new tab and that takes me to General Discussion, and I don't mind that, so I therefore seldom go backwards down the forum tree.

These are just my General thoughts on this topic.

mohio

I think JVReal has pretty much hit the nail on the head with the "discussion" bit. If you want to engender discussion on a topic, you bring it into the general discussion forum. Tips and Guides I see as a place to ask for help or suggestions on how to build a roster. Character discussion is more on the minutiae of a character's abilities and how it would be best to build them, and who they work well with, etc. Suggestions and Feedback always seemed to me to be a place to put your fully formed ideas/suggestions so the devs would see it. GD on the other hand was a place you could discuss those ideas with your fellow players and maybe change your mind or fine tune an idea. Being the place where all of the announcements are discussed, it naturally leads people to spin off from those threads into discussing similar things. 

From a personal standpoint, I would say that LINE has taken the place of most of the subforums on here. I can get any character discussion, event discussion, tips, etc. just from posting in my alliance chat or joining in on what others are already talking about. So rather than bother keeping up with all the different sections, I just check GD to keep up with other forumites and see what is interesting them and maybe I have something to add that I think furthers the discussion. I suppose this is the behavior they're trying to eliminate, but that's what I currently do, and would strongly prefer to keep doing. 

jojeda654

shobi6669 said:

So a character announcement may direct people to Character Discussion and details on a re-run of a Boss Event may direct readers to discuss in the Events, Tournaments, and Missions section.

I am going to use this to jump onto my soapbox for a minute.

I put in a lot of time into maintaining the Events sub forum, and it always puzzled me how details from new events were always placed in GD. Same with the event preview thread. If the admins are not going adhere to rule 12 of the Forum Rules, then they shouldn't be surprised when forum members don't. Frankly, if the board admins are going to ignore that subforum, then we may as well get rid of it.

A couple of examples:
1) We had 2 threads in GD discussing the recent Crash, when we already had one in Events.
2) Since the forum update, I lost my maintainer privileges, so I have not been able to sticky threads for events as they go live. I think we've had 3 Crashes since the Winter Soldier one, and it's still pinned as an Announcement. We are halfway through the Power Gem season, and the Space Gem end of season thread is still an announcement as well.

Honestly, it's too late try to organize the board. People have already developed their habits, and they do not want to change them. I think it's best to let things go, since most people already think the mods over-moderate, and we've lost quite a few members no thanks to the board update. Let's try to keep the ones left happy.

bbigler

My suggestion is simple: keep general discussion as the go-to for all news, announcements and active discussion.  Have the other sections be simply for reference.  If someone's question has already been answered in another section, then move or delete the post and give the poster a link to that thread.  If topics are duplicated in general discussion, then move/delete the ones after the first one. 

Magic

I also share the sentiment. GD is the place I post if I want to discuss a topic - general or specific. With the exception of roster help (there is a subforum), bugs report (there is subject forum) and event details (there is subforum - if I want to find out if the next event has 2 day nodes I would ask there or look for info there).

Suggestion and feedback forum is clearly directed at developers. Here is my feedback or idea. Take it or leave it. Lack of interaction there makes it a hollow place.

General discussion might be the very same thing but directed at other users. Its a place where I share my views with the general public of the forum and where I look for their opinion. When I post there I expect active exchange with others.

Also I think it's a horrible idea to take away the announcements from GD and News page and spread them across all the forums. I prefer the current model. You can also open the news part for discussion without giving rights to create threads. Then you can take the news from GD as discussion will happen in news section. 

Punisher5784

I agree with Solution 2. When Brigby or another Red posts an announcement it should be placed in the appropriate subforum, like Hot Fixes in the Bugs section. That will drive players to explore the other subforum and if we want to see all announcements together, we simply view them under News & Announcements. Perhaps more players will be inclined to actually post in other areas other than General.

I'm curious how this rolls out. Good look and thank you for sharing the Mods ideas. I wish this similar approach was used before the Forum site itself was updated.

Dormammu

When making posts I have always tried to adhere to my self-imposed rule:

If my topic fits another category (character, tip, guide, suggestion) post it there. If not, General Discussion is cool.

I do think these forums suffer from what a lot of other forums develop: too many categories, which makes it a chore for people to move around in. When I come to the forum and there are 11 different category listings for me to browse through in order to see any topics that might be interesting it gets a little daunting. I don't always have that much time. As a result, people tend to gravitate towards one category that's the most flexible (General Discussion) and linger there.

Around here, the Bugs and Technical Issues could be combined with Suggestions and Feedback. Character Discussion could be combined with Speculation and Concepts. Tips and Guides could be combined with Roster and Level Help. And I'm not talking about sub-categories, like they existed on the previous forum - those are even worse.

DFiPL

The main issue I see with "decentralizing" General Discussion is that it means trying to pull together all the disparate parts of whatever's going on at a given time will mean more work for the user than is currently necessary. If character releases/rebalances are in one forum, discussion of a new feature is in another, and discussion of the playerbase's reaction to either of the above two are in a third, decentralizing might increase traffic to other forums at the expense of visitor ease of use.

mohio

Maybe this requires an @Brigby response, but why exactly is it important to increase traffic to other subforums? Am I missing out on some hidden gem posts because I'm not really interested in the "theory and statistics" sub? Nor do I want to read through pages of posts of user-made character powers for Marvel characters I've barely even (or never) heard of, despite those people undoubtedly spending a lot of time working on it. I commend their efforts, but sadly I'm just not the target audience.

moss04

1. Allow comments to the posts in 'News and Announcements'
2. Remove announcements from 'General Discussion'
3. Rename 'Suggestions and Feedback' to 'Suggestions'
4. Rename 'General Discussion' to 'Feedback'
5. Create a new 'Off Topic'

Magic

moss04 said:

1. Allow comments to the posts in 'News and Announcements'
2. Remove announcements from 'General Discussion'
3. Rename 'Suggestions and Feedback' to 'Suggestions'
4. Rename 'General Discussion' to 'Feedback'
5. Create a new 'Off Topic'

I like this idea a lot. I would do "Feedback and discussion" for point 4. 

Stax the Foyer

If @Brigby wants us to post more in subforums, he can lead the way by posting there himself, maybe even exclusively.  If there are posts on the topic in GD and the subforum, post in the subforum topic and cultivate a discussion there.  Maybe post a link to that discussion in the GD thread so that people know it's going on.

Same thing for the other developers (should one of them ever show their faces on the forum again).  If that's where we're more likely to get or read a red discussion, many people will go there.

Not everyone posts for red responses, but some do.  They'll change their behavior.  And if the forum activity shifts to subforums, the people who post for forum engagement will go there, too.

Carrots, not sticks.  That's how you change behavior.

JHawkInc

The problem with doing away with general discussion or changing it significantly is with all of the things that actually belong in general discussion. The PW3 threads when new episodes come out, "What was your first?", the Best/Worst moments threads, first world problems, there are plenty right out in the open that belong in GD and not somewhere else.

Other issues would go away if people would post things where they actually belong. 

Jaedenkaal

Great summary, I approve.

moss04 said:

1. Allow comments to the posts in 'News and Announcements'
2. Remove announcements from 'General Discussion'
3. Rename 'Suggestions and Feedback' to 'Suggestions'
4. Rename 'General Discussion' to 'Feedback'
5. Create a new 'Off Topic'

I think you'll always need a forum with "General" in the name somewhere, otherwise people won't know where to post if their topic doesn't seem to fit into any of the (more specifically-named) forums. Obviously that will apply less to seasoned posters, but it will always be a concern for newer members.

So I think it's ok to have a general discussion forum that is defined negatively, as long as there are a relatively small number of other options. For example:

Announcements - I waffled on this one, but it's definitely the place the look for older announcements without having to wade through pages and pages and pages of discussion about whatever.

Character Discussion - includes characters, teams, guides (for characters,character teams, levelling, etc), character speculation and concepts

Alliance Discussion - All the things it currently does, presumably

Events, Tournaments, Missions - All the things it does currently, plus tips and guides for events/missions/tournaments. Arguably this would include general PVP strategy

Bugs and Technical Issues - All the things it does today. More attention to [devs aware] bugs, such as pinning to the top until resolved, would really be helpful.

Suggestions - New things or new changes that you think will help the game. No expectation of Red responses (continued assurance that they'll be read, of course)

General Discussion & Feedback - Discuss-able announcements from D3/Demi, feedback regarding in-game new features or changes, plus everything else that doesn't seem to fit into the above 5 categories.

mohio

@above - I agree with your summary, but I feel like this is too "user friendly". In other words, it doesn't actually drive traffic to other parts of the forum, it just makes GD more correctly named than it currently is.

Which leads me to again ask...why the necessity to bring traffic to other parts of the forum?

Wumpushunter

Only way you drive people and eyeballs to sub forums is to get devs and community people to go there first.

MarkersMake

If you want Suggestions and Feedback to be taken seriously, then we need a thread like this one: http://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/548376#Comment_548376 
Remember when the list had to be updated with all the user suggestions that had been implemented in-game? 

Right now it's like throwing bottles in the ocean. 

If you're really serious about it, have @brigby curate it. He does an amazing job of responding to individual questions as they occur in GD, but they are scattered across dozens of threads. Having a coherent view of what the devs think or have said on various issues would make a huge difference in terms of engagement, and might give the Suggestions forum some actual traffic. 

morph3us

A couple of comments.

Firstly, I definitely understand why Brigby wants to encourage the use of the subforums, as it makes it easier to find things by category.  Having everything jumbled up in GD eventually results in useful threads being pushed several pages back, which is the same oblivion as the less frequented subforums, when you look at it that way.

Secondly, if we're going to define General Discussion as "Not Any Other Subforum", maybe GD should be renamed "MPQ Off Topic".  I also agree that News and Announcements should be unlocked, or at least link to subforum posts.

Thirdly, I agree with everyone else here who has pointed out that the best way to drive eyeballs to the other subforums is for the red names to post more there.  

My last thought is a little more off the wall.  The other potential solution is to try and set the forum up to be a little more modular.  At present, when you start a thread in a subforum, it creates that post in that subforum.  If there was an option when you create a thread, with a dropdown for "topic" (ie Strategy, Character Discussion etc), it could automatically nest that thread in the appropriate subforum, whilst potentially leaving a stub in the initial forum where it was created.  For instance, J1P's post after it was moved had "MOVED" underneath it.  If the functionality exists, if someone created a post in GD, but selected "Character Discussion", the stub would still exist in GD, but the actual thread in Character Discussion".  The stub in GD would have "Character Discussion" underneath it, to indicate that it's a stub that exists in another thread.