Rebalancing 5* Hulk

Cactus_Jack_87

So Hulk is my favorite comic book character. I was super excited when a 5* version came to MPQ, and even though I only have a single cover for him (purple, thankfully), I do have an alliance mate that has him champed. Sadly, his feedback on the character goes along with most that I've heard...he's just not that great a character. He's definitely fun, but he's not as scary as the Hulk SHOULD be. We should be terrified to let that countdown tile tick down to zero, because when Banner Hulks out, things get crazy. So, an idea. What if, once Banner transforms to Hulk, he throws out a hefty, fortified strike tile each turn before he makes his auto-match? Each turn, a new, slightly more powerful strike tile get thrown out. This would simulate Hulk's strength growing with his anger. Once you take Hulk down and he reverts back to Banner, all the fortified strike tiles disappear. Obviously Banner would need to be adjusted as well with his attack tiles, or he would just be ridiculous. Thoughts? Should I be doing better things with my time?

JangoLore

That would be delightful!

hopper1979

I would be happy if he just got to keep the ap from the matches that alone would make him much better he is a great tank once you get rolling and he is amusing to play I am at 1/1/2 and I can see the potential but you are correct once he is the Hulk he is not that dangerous other than sucking up a lot of extra damage in the match.  To balance you idea he should do what venom used to do and put out a strike tile for you and your opponent because he is not always helpful on a team

Jarvind

While I agree that Banner is deserving of more awesome, passive guaranteed strike production would likely catapult him from "bottom of his tier" to "wildly overpowered" all by itself, particularly combined with the extra tile move each turn and, as you noted, Banner-form's ability to create punch tiles.

It also doesn't fit thematically - the idea is that he goes from zero to ZOMGMURDER when he gets angry all at once, not that he slowly gets stronger and stronger.

Cactus_Jack_87

He gets stronger as he fights longer and gets angrier, that's kinda the point of the Hulk. 3* Hulk's best move is arguably his passive, so it seems obvious that 5* Hulk should make you terrified to attack him. Another mechanic that would be interesting would be for him to passively throw out weaker strike tiles at first, and when they get matched, he throws out stronger strike tiles, similar to a Medusa mechanic. You'd have to walk on eggshells to avoid making him "angrier".

Banner's moves are just a mess. His gamma ray experiment is fine, but his attack tiles make no sense to me.

OneLastGambit

Thematically it makes more sense (if taking the 'make him angry approach') to have hulk spit out strikes when he is attacked and damaged over x amount. Thus he only gets stronger when he gets angrier.

His AOE should also be beefed up a bit as it's very weak for his tier. Banner often feels more like a 4.5*

vinsensual

How about his transformed state creates strike tiles whenever Hulk's AI matches away friendly tiles or useful colors of AP.  I know I get annoyed whenever he does that, so it must be 10x worse for an actual character fighting in the game.

catcusvader

Having used him I find him to be slow and under powered. He has passives that really don't do much to help his team or himself very well. I think the the transformation can be done a lot better.

Blue ability: I would like him to be able to create timers when the enemy creates one, "cause he is a scientist after all" and his timers would generate 2 green ap when it expires. If there are too many timers on the board (4) "his experiment goes awry and he blows up his lab" stunning himself for 1 turn and destroying 9 tiles in the process the tiles generate ap.

Passive: when ever friendly timer expires he generates 2 green ap

Black ability: cost 7 ap, creates 2 friendly attack tiles and 1 enemy attack tile, whenever there are enemy attack tiles on the board he destroys 4 random tiles and turns one into a timer

Passive whenever there is an enemy attack tile on the board he transform 1 into a 3 second timer

Pink: remains the same

Hulk
Green; increase smash damage

Red: works as before along with every match he  makes strengths friendly special tiles by (200) just like (prof x blindspot). If his team has 12 or more ap in any color he decreases enemy special tiles by 150

Forbush

I also love Ol' Jade Jaws, and am a bit sad that his implementation is not nearly as fun and explosive as he should be.  I could say the exact same about his *3 version, to boot.  There's some cool ideas here, though - I really love the core concept of taking control away from you, but it ends up being more annoying than effective. 

I have a simple solution -- why not combine the powersets of both disappointing versions of the Hulkster?

In Hulk form, give him Anger, and make it proc above a level-based damage threshold, rather than a percentage (given his massive health), perhaps hitting everyone else in the match like the level 5 version.  Tie that threshold closely to Banner's Smartest Guy enemy Attack tiles (and maybe - gasp! - beef them up!), so that any aggravation left behind by puny Banner just enrages the Hulk even more, giving this annoying ability an actual useful reason to be annoying.  (Perhaps this might be a good use of the "in front" mechanic?  I think that would actually be overpowered, though...)  To compensate for all the loads of green generated, change SMASH into a tile destruction power rather than straight damage (every other Hulk in the game has a tile destruction power, but 5* Hulk doesnt?!?  It's a Hulk power called SMASH, c'mon!!), with per tile AOE damage/no AP.

I'm toying with the idea of red ability in Hulk form that drains his green, turns him back into Banner, and stuns everyone else in the match, but that might be taking my concept too far.  Anyway, tell me if I'm crazy or if I might be on to something!

SangFroid

I like the general idea of the character I just wish he was not so underpowered. On his character thread I had also posted that simply gaining AP on his extra matches would go a long way to making him a lot more useful and I still think that would make a difference.  There have been a lot of good suggestions in this thread as well.  I have another couple of suggestions:

• In his Hulk form make him have crazy match damage in green and maybe red as well (something like lvl 450 green match three is 4K damage) I know currently it is increased but it should be one of his really unique elements that would really make you want to chase those two colours and would make up for how weak his active green power is
• Another fix could be that whenever he is in Hulk form he has the same power as Colossus Yellow/Thanos Green in that he is always in front so soaks up damage.  It makes sense thematically in that if Hulk shows up in a fight his allies let him rage at the front and they hang back so they don't get inadvertently smashed.  You could also have the reverse effect while he is in banner form in that he is almost quasi invisible and he will never come to the front unless he is the last man standing. Again this would make sense as Banner would be running from battle when not in Hulk form.  The Banner piece might make him really hard to kill though so might not be balanced

Jaedenkaal

Forbush said:

In Hulk form, give him Anger, and make it proc above a level-based damage threshold, rather than a percentage (given his massive health), perhaps hitting everyone else in the match like the level 5 version.  

The Other Guy actually has less health than any other 5* by a pretty significant margin. More than any 3*, certainly, if that's what you were getting at. Also, for 5*s, ability damage and hit points scale at exactly the same rate (more or less) so there's no real different between the percentage and the scaled value, except that the scaling value is more explicit.

Bang bang?

Cactus_Jack_87

Bang bang?

Did someone say "BANG BANG?!?"

Dayv

I've just champed 5* Hulk, and... yeah, he's pretty disappointing.

His blue passive only triggers when there are fewer than seven green on the board, and at 5 covers creates just two green tiles while doing less damage than a match 3 in one of his strong colors.  This passive will only trigger if you're actively working to clear the board of green, and will rarely make any immediate matches.

In fact, the "seven of fewer of this color" requirement is the amen one that 4* Hulk (Amadeus Cho) had for his black, which was pretty much useless because of how hard that threshold is to meet predictably. 

Compare Banner blue to the passive  powers on 4* Cloak & Dagger.  Theirs at five covers create four tiles at a threshold of fewer than nine tiles, and they have another effect to take place when the tile threshold isn't met.  These powers are never idle.

Mwanwhile, 4* Rocket and Groot now have a passive to do free matches under the right circumstances -- but theirs gathers AP.

Two out of Banner's powers are so totally outshined by 4* characters that it's basically crazy.

Sim Mayor

OK, not disagreeing that his power set doesn't make you [tinykitty] yourself like a Hulk card should, but everybody here seems to be ignoring the fact that, managed properly, you have a tank who can die over and over again without affecting his "real" health bar.

In addition, once The Other Guy is on the board you're basically getting double match damage, which usually adds another 400-500 damage per turn even with only the 2 covers I have. I absolutely wish I could keep the AP, sure, especially when he matches away something I've been waiting for. But really, he doesn't need a fix to be a worthy 5*, he just needs some careful managing.

Jaedenkaal

Sim Mayor said:

OK, not disagreeing that his power set doesn't make you [tinykitty] yourself like a Hulk card should, but everybody here seems to be ignoring the fact that, managed properly, you have a tank who can die over and over again without affecting his "real" health bar.

You can't win a match simply by not dying, though. Well, I mean, you can, but not fast enough to accomplish anything spectacular. And all you're saving here is 1 health pack at a time

evade420

If I see someone using maxed banner in pvp I take him out, he is a major target and seriously weak in the 5* tier.

SpringSoldier

I know this thread is old, but it's still up-to-date, unfortunately. Hulk 5* is seriously weak: he causes little damage, his tile matching can be an inconvenience at time, especially when you can make a serious combo and he just matches 4 tiles or when he takes out your special tiles or when he takes our your best AP tiles- without gaining AP. Worst of all, "smartest guy in the room" is very cheap and very damaging to the rest of the team. I'm not a big Hulk fan, but since I already 3 covers on him, I would like him to become useful at some point in the future.

Handoftheking26

I am glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels Hulk is not getting his due. I too have always been a huge fan and was crazy excited when he was announced as a 5*. But the fact that once again he is a lower tier character is such a huge bummer. Guess i just feel a 5* green Hulk should be better than a 4* red one. I hope he is the next character they fix. 

Cactus_Jack_87

I think we can all agree that it would be nice to see a few different 5*s actually being used. I don't think I've ever faced a decently leveled Hulk in PvP since I started transitioning comfortably into 4* territory. It's just champed OMLs, Phoenix, and Thanos. Cap got a decent rework, but I never see him either.

zodiac339

I can't agree with the strike tiles just being thrown out there, since that doesn't just affect his damage. It does make me think that something modified from Vision's blue could be a choice though.
Strongest There Is! - 0 (Black?) AP
(PASSIVE) If one doesn't exist, creates a 10 turn Countdown tile that increases Hulk's damage as it counts down. When the Countdown resolves, Hulk smashes the board in his anger, destroying 16 random tiles, dealing damage but not generating AP.

The modification would work something like "damage increased by (100 + 100/(CD time))%", which would mean 110% damage when CD says 10, 111% at 9, 112% at 8, 114% at 7, 116% at 6, 120% at 5, 125% at 4, 133% at 3, 150% at 2, and 200% at 1. That example may be too cumbersome. Perhaps a flat damage increase that goes up each turn instead of percentage? Let's see, (135 + (10/CD)*23) at level 270, which would be 158 damage at CD count 10, 365 damage at 1. I don't know. Any addition could help.

Cactus_Jack_87

zodiac339 said:

I can't agree with the strike tiles just being thrown out there, since that doesn't just affect his damage. It does make me think that something modified from Vision's blue could be a choice though.
Strongest There Is! - 0 (Black?) AP
(PASSIVE) If one doesn't exist, creates a 10 turn Countdown tile that increases Hulk's damage as it counts down. When the Countdown resolves, Hulk smashes the board in his anger, destroying 16 random tiles, dealing damage but not generating AP.

The modification would work something like "damage increased by (100 + 100/(CD time))%", which would mean 110% damage when CD says 10, 111% at 9, 112% at 8, 114% at 7, 116% at 6, 120% at 5, 125% at 4, 133% at 3, 150% at 2, and 200% at 1. That example may be too cumbersome. Perhaps a flat damage increase that goes up each turn instead of percentage? Let's see, (135 + (10/CD)*23) at level 270, which would be 158 damage at CD count 10, 365 damage at 1. I don't know. Any addition could help.

It's been a while since I came up with the strike tile idea, but when I went back and read it today, I thought the same thing. Something that buffs his personal strength like Vision or Thanos' powers would be awesome. LOVE the smash damage at the end. I think I'll dig out my stationary, it's time to write D3 a letter!