dear lower tier players

madwren

Now they're coming for your mana runes. =/

from the pre-release notes;

The Training Grounds is a free new event that resets every day with progression rewards that will quickly grant you Mana Runes, after a low number of fights. You can still play as much as you want in it, but the progression rewards cap out and the amount of Mana Runes you will get from prolonged play will no longer be as high as they used to be. The Training Grounds fights will not feature any leaderboards or additional objectives - we want this to be a low-stress environment where you can test your decks against other opponents.



My take:  Look,I don't care how you frame it, there should be a place where newcomers to the game can grind out mana runes to their heart's content so that they can level their gd planeswalkers. Saying it's a "rebalancing" doesn't change the fact that the newcomer experience is now harder.

losdamianos

well, they#ve capped mythics, single event rewards, cut coalition rewards from few other events its only fair to also cut runes. Why get them for free if you can buy bundle ?

wereotter

Every time you clear a story mode battle you get a nice boost of mana runes. Not only is story mode a safer place for new players to learn how to play the game, but the payoff is better. Yes, it's overall less runes, but I can at least say that when I was a new player, I wasn't using quick battle to get my own runes, I was using story mode not just for the runes, but for the mana crystals so I could buy packs and get more cards.

madwren

JC responded in another thread. I'll copy it here since it's relevant.

1- You can play as much as you want in the Training Grounds, and still earn Runes with every single victory. The main difference is that it no longer is a competitive event, but more of a place where you can go and practice and play. You can still grind Mana Runes in the mode, and you can play with any cards you want and any decks you want.


As long as lower tiers can grind runes as much as they want, that's fine. The original quote I took offense to seemed to indicate there was some sort of cap that occurred after you hit progression.

toastie

madwren said:

JC responded in another thread. I'll copy it here since it's relevant.

1- You can play as much as you want in the Training Grounds, and still earn Runes with every single victory. The main difference is that it no longer is a competitive event, but more of a place where you can go and practice and play. You can still grind Mana Runes in the mode, and you can play with any cards you want and any decks you want.


As long as lower tiers can grind runes as much as they want, that's fine. The original quote I took offense to seemed to indicate there was some sort of cap that occurred after you hit progression.

It's still a blow to new players because of the loss of guaranteed rares 3 times a week for not a whole lot of effort. This is going to make it significantly more difficult to catch up without spending tons of money.

madwren

That's a very good point, Toastie. I hadn't considered the guaranteed rare aspect of things. That sucks.

shteev

LakeStone said:

the amount of Mana Runes you will get from prolonged play will no longer be as high as they used to be.

Don't let this one slip by you. You *will* be able to grind runes as much as you want, but you will *not* earn as many as you used to. The prizes have been cut, and the individual game rewards have been cut too.

wereotter

toastie said:

madwren said:

JC responded in another thread. I'll copy it here since it's relevant.

1- You can play as much as you want in the Training Grounds, and still earn Runes with every single victory. The main difference is that it no longer is a competitive event, but more of a place where you can go and practice and play. You can still grind Mana Runes in the mode, and you can play with any cards you want and any decks you want.


As long as lower tiers can grind runes as much as they want, that's fine. The original quote I took offense to seemed to indicate there was some sort of cap that occurred after you hit progression.

It's still a blow to new players because of the loss of guaranteed rares 3 times a week for not a whole lot of effort. This is going to make it significantly more difficult to catch up without spending tons of money.

I'm an established player and only maybe twice have gotten a rare card as a quick battle reward. It's a pretty massive time investment for a new player to try to get them from quick battle. Consider a new player isn't as likely to be using a level 60 planeswalker, so they're getting less ribbons per battle, so to compete with everyone else who can cycle through level 60 planeswalkers indefinitely, or are playing insane Nahiri or Koth decks to rack up massive points, there's really not as much a chance for rare reward cards as it sounds. I found I had better luck just getting rares rewards from coalition events when I was in that position just 

J23flo

wereotter said:

toastie said:

madwren said:

JC responded in another thread. I'll copy it here since it's relevant.

1- You can play as much as you want in the Training Grounds, and still earn Runes with every single victory. The main difference is that it no longer is a competitive event, but more of a place where you can go and practice and play. You can still grind Mana Runes in the mode, and you can play with any cards you want and any decks you want.


As long as lower tiers can grind runes as much as they want, that's fine. The original quote I took offense to seemed to indicate there was some sort of cap that occurred after you hit progression.

It's still a blow to new players because of the loss of guaranteed rares 3 times a week for not a whole lot of effort. This is going to make it significantly more difficult to catch up without spending tons of money.

I'm an established player and only maybe twice have gotten a rare card as a quick battle reward. It's a pretty massive time investment for a new player to try to get them from quick battle. Consider a new player isn't as likely to be using a level 60 planeswalker, so they're getting less ribbons per battle, so to compete with everyone else who can cycle through level 60 planeswalkers indefinitely, or are playing insane Nahiri or Koth decks to rack up massive points, there's really not as much a chance for rare reward cards as it sounds. I found I had better luck just getting rares rewards from coalition events when I was in that position just 

Rares start at being ranked 150. It really isn't hard to get that. Seriously 20 to 30 battles over two days is with a level 60 PW is not hard to achieve. It might be now that the rewards have been slashed across the board though…

toastie

wereotter said:

I'm an established player and only maybe twice have gotten a rare card as a quick battle reward. It's a pretty massive time investment for a new player to try to get them from quick battle. Consider a new player isn't as likely to be using a level 60 planeswalker, so they're getting less ribbons per battle, so to compete with everyone else who can cycle through level 60 planeswalkers indefinitely, or are playing insane Nahiri or Koth decks to rack up massive points, there's really not as much a chance for rare reward cards as it sounds. I found I had better luck just getting rares rewards from coalition events when I was in that position just 

IMO 150 isn't that bad to get to, especially if you are in a later bracket. 50 is a royal pain though.

wereotter

J23flo said:

wereotter said:

toastie said:

madwren said:

JC responded in another thread. I'll copy it here since it's relevant.

1- You can play as much as you want in the Training Grounds, and still earn Runes with every single victory. The main difference is that it no longer is a competitive event, but more of a place where you can go and practice and play. You can still grind Mana Runes in the mode, and you can play with any cards you want and any decks you want.


As long as lower tiers can grind runes as much as they want, that's fine. The original quote I took offense to seemed to indicate there was some sort of cap that occurred after you hit progression.

It's still a blow to new players because of the loss of guaranteed rares 3 times a week for not a whole lot of effort. This is going to make it significantly more difficult to catch up without spending tons of money.

I'm an established player and only maybe twice have gotten a rare card as a quick battle reward. It's a pretty massive time investment for a new player to try to get them from quick battle. Consider a new player isn't as likely to be using a level 60 planeswalker, so they're getting less ribbons per battle, so to compete with everyone else who can cycle through level 60 planeswalkers indefinitely, or are playing insane Nahiri or Koth decks to rack up massive points, there's really not as much a chance for rare reward cards as it sounds. I found I had better luck just getting rares rewards from coalition events when I was in that position just 

Rares start at being ranked 150. It really isn't hard to get that. Seriously 20 to 30 battles over two days is with a level 60 PW is not hard to achieve. It might be now that the rewards have been slashed across the board though…

Which is exactly the point I was making. 20-30 WINS not battles, with a level 60 planeswalker. So you're expecting a new player to be able to pull this off to build their collection of rares?

Remember, a new player isn't as likely to have as many of the powerful cards that established players do to make their decks consistently win. They also aren't as likely to have planeswalkers at level 60, which means they will be getting fewer ribbons. Say they have their primary planeswalker around level 30. Now you're asking them to get 60 wins to get a rare. That's a pretty large time investment for someone just getting into the game.

hawkyh1

wereotter said:

Which is exactly the point I was making. 20-30 WINS not battles, with a level 60 planeswalker. So you're expecting a new player to be able to pull this off to build their collection of rares?

Remember, a new player isn't as likely to have as many of the powerful cards that established players do to make their decks consistently win. They also aren't as likely to have planeswalkers at level 60, which means they will be getting fewer ribbons. Say they have their primary planeswalker around level 30. Now you're asking them to get 60 wins to get a rare. That's a pretty large time investment for someone just getting into the game.

in practice it's actually very possible. I used to think getting
rank 150 out of 3000 players is silly odds. many players
just stay at low scores. I use gideon1 lone rider, serene
steward, enshrouding mists, give no ground. lone rider is
good but mostly uncommons and some commons. the
deck can be used from level 30 to slowly acquire rares.
it starts off harder at first but if you invest your acquired
runes in your battling planeswalker it'll get easier. you
don't need rares+ to get started. persistence to stick with
the strategy helps here.

HH

aenigmaeffect

I see the pros and (minor) cons to this, but overall I like it. 

I'm probably still considered newish (4 months playing), and early on, QBs seemed impossible. It's only after I realized that late entry (ie final hour) can sneak you in that I bothered at all. Newer players who are more casual (ie don't browse the forums) will likely get more out of this on average. 

That said, I did inadvertently play a bunch of QB (maybe 150 games total?) at times, and got the extra runes for my PWs which may be difficult to accumulate in such rapid fashion in the new system. 

This new change makes it more likely I'll play around with different decks for QB, and just play my 4 wins and get out rather than grinding. 

Also, the old QB is also very luck based. If you join a bracket as player 2999, it's such a hugely demoralizing disadvantage, and this new change eliminates that. 

Furthermore, I have a suspicion that the players that benefit the most from the old system (in terms of getting top prizes cards/packs/rares) tend to be the same ones, and there's no way a newer player would ever get to that spot. 

AngelForge

New players have the story mode (which will hopefully get some love in the future) and can harvest runes there (I did that when I thought leveling up is a good thing...). Leveling up to fast is actually a downside nowadays as long as this matchmaking loophole is not fixed.

I can't help myself but think, that the "new player" argument is just an advanced one by seasoned players.

Archivist

losdamianos said:

well, they#ve capped mythics, single event rewards, cut coalition rewards from few other events its only fair to also cut runes. Why get them for free if you can buy the bundle ?

My thoughts exactly.  Nothing will ever come free again in this game.  I don't think it's a good idea to keep playing this game when they continually make it harder and harder to progress.

//Removed Insult -Brigby

Glenghis

Everybody seems to be fixating on the guaranteed rares in QB.
What about the packs?
When I started playing QB it was with lvl10 G1 (only because I couldn't progress any further in story mode) and I used to grind my way up to try and get at least a booster.
The feeling of achievement and excitement when I won an basic booster, or even better an SOI or BfZ 5 card booster.
Even more sense of achievement when I found a rare (or any card I didn't have) in the pack.
All that has been taken away meaning new players have only the 8hr, basic booster or the free pack every 5 days as a means of growing their collection without having to spend crystals or $$$.
I feel this may be the end for me.
Now the only chance of me ever getting another mythic (other than the 16 + 2 dupes I already have) is to try and get 400 jewels and hope I don't get any more dupes in the elite pack.
Is that worth the effort? Probably not.

Ohboy

Glenghis said:

Everybody seems to be fixating on the guaranteed rares in QB.
What about the packs?
When I started playing QB it was with lvl10 G1 (only because I couldn't progress any further in story mode) and I used to grind my way up to try and get at least a booster.
The feeling of achievement and excitement when I won an basic booster, or even better an SOI or BfZ 5 card booster.
Even more sense of achievement when I found a rare (or any card I didn't have) in the pack.
All that has been taken away meaning new players have only the 8hr, basic booster or the free pack every 5 days as a means of growing their collection without having to spend crystals or $$$.
I feel this may be the end for me.
Now the only chance of me ever getting another mythic (other than the 16 + 2 dupes I already have) is to try and get 400 jewels and hope I don't get any more dupes in the elite pack.
Is that worth the effort? Probably not.

My beginner experience was similar. 

My initial 2 big boxes purchased with storyline crystals yielded a grand total of 1 semi usable mythic, and I clawed my way up slowly with a low level Gideon 1 in QB. I still remember the thrill of winning desolation twin by placing top 10 for the first time. 

When QB first started giving out rewards, it felt like a magical time getting those free rares and packs, because back then there were no other avenues to get them as f2p(outside daily rewards). Now that we're dialing rewards back,  I'm actually not sure what path new players can take now if they have a sucky start in boosters, especially if rewards continue to shrink(which I think they will). 

Hopefully the community starts branching out and start more newbie friendly coalitions now that the rewards are no longer creating an incentive for cutthroat competition. 

Sorin81

AngelForge said:

I can't help myself but think, that the "new player" argument is just an advanced one by seasoned players.

I am a "seasoned player" but not top level. 
You may be right that the "new player" argument is being advanced by the seasoned players but you seem to be making that a negative thing.
The arguments being made by seasoned players are not self serving. In fact they don't benefit most veteran players much. We want new players that come to the game to be able to advance and to have as many avenues as possible in order to do so. This game will not survive without new players but you can't expect them to stay if they can't progress. Taking away their ability to accumulate runes, card packs and even crystals only serves to stagnate these new players. 
I understand that there are still ways to get these things but everything that has been reduced and taken away by D3 will hurt the new player experience more than anything else. 
So yeah we are advancing this argument.

Delnai

I agree that it sucks to take away a source of guaranteed rares for newer players trying to
buuld their collections. On the other hand, even if D3 agrees that having a recurring source of guaranteed rares is good for the new player experience (which it kind of seems like they might not) it's not in their best interests to have that source Be placement rewards for QBs. They presumably want to allow -as many- new players to get hooked on their game as possible. Only 1/12 (or 1/20? I forget) QB players got rares as prize payout. So from their point of view it's kind of a bad system.

madwren

It's extremely important that veteran players not only advocate for new players, but also draw upon and discuss their experiences becoming veteran players in the first place.  New players are, by definition, inexperienced at the game, and are not immediately privy to the obstacles, shortcuts and prioritizations that can potentially help them maximize their experience.

Likewise, promoting a positive new player or low level experience impacts us only indirectly.  Arguing on behalf of the new player who won't be able to level his planeswalker from 0 to 60 in an expedient manner has nothing to do with my gameplay or experience. Insisting that they have equitably scaled rewards and entry fees doesn't benefit me. Encouraging the development of PVE challenges that they can attain at lower levels and with smaller collections, rather than facing the same challenges as upper tier players, doesn't benefit me.

It's frustrating that leveling planeswalkers is such a grind, and that the rune rewards from events is so paltry. They should be handing out runes in allotments of 10,000, but instead they expect people to be satisfied with 250.

From what I gather, the devs are trying to massively slow down the pace of the user experience. And turn it into even more of a grind than it already is.  This has been commented on in numerous threads, but if the perceived problem was the growing gap between “rich” (seasoned/high tier) and “poor” (new/lower tier) players, instead of a player-centric solution which uplifted the poor, they opted for a series of solutions that punish everyone.

By stretching out the timeline for card acquisition, reward accrual, and planeswalker leveling, they’re creating a lengthier—and my fear is, far less satisfying—low level experience.

Ohboy

madwren said:

It's extremely important that veteran players not only advocate for new players, but also draw upon and discuss their experiences becoming veteran players in the first place.  New players are, by definition, inexperienced at the game, and are not immediately privy to the obstacles, shortcuts and prioritizations that can potentially help them maximize their experience.

Likewise, promoting a positive new player or low level experience impacts us only indirectly.  Arguing on behalf of the new player who won't be able to level his planeswalker from 0 to 60 in an expedient manner has nothing to do with my gameplay or experience. Insisting that they have equitably scaled rewards and entry fees doesn't benefit me. Encouraging the development of PVE challenges that they can attain at lower levels and with smaller collections, rather than facing the same challenges as upper tier players, doesn't benefit me.

It's frustrating that leveling planeswalkers is such a grind, and that the rune rewards from events is so paltry. They should be handing out runes in allotments of 10,000, but instead they expect people to be satisfied with 250.

From what I gather, the devs are trying to massively slow down the pace of the user experience. And turn it into even more of a grind than it already is.  This has been commented on in numerous threads, but if the perceived problem was the growing gap between “rich” (seasoned/high tier) and “poor” (new/lower tier) players, instead of a player-centric solution which uplifted the poor, they opted for a series of solutions that punish everyone.

By stretching out the timeline for card acquisition, reward accrual, and planeswalker leveling, they’re creating a lengthier—and my fear is, far less satisfying—low level experience.

Complain about being flooded by runes or complain about runes not being more easily available.

Gotta pick one.