I love how vaulting works

ejm04

I love how vaulting works... for 3* covers. The characters in tokens are a variety chosen for their popularity and strength. Of the 20, 16 are in Dauthi's top tier or high tier. In fact, the top tier has 7 of it's 9 members in tokens. The high tier has 9 of it's 15 members in tokens. As someone who is in the 3* transition (I just champed Patch today thanks to BH), having these characters available, and many of the less potent characters weeded out is pretty great. The few upper echelon characters that aren't in tokens can be my bonus heroes and it's pretty great.

But.

But they didn't select 4* characters this way. Most of the upper tiers of 4* characters are older and out of tokens. The best tokened character will be out of them in about a week and it's mostly sadness remaining. Just pick the 4* they way you chose 3* and most of the complaints go away. It's absurd for people building their 4* roster to pull tokens and get nothing but second rate characters until the rng blesses them with a bonus hero. However, if most of those pulls were useful and brought them closer in power to older players with more developed rosters, they'd probably feel the way I do about my time building 3* guys. I hope it gets solved by the time I get there.

Also, hawkguy isn't in any of my vaults, so I currently have no way of getting him. He's not in tokens, because they used a better method, he's new so I can't bh him. It's kinda weird. Just sayin'.

DFiPL

ejm04 wrote:

Also, hawkguy isn't in any of my vaults, so I currently have no way of getting him. He's not in tokens, because they used a better method, he's new so I can't bh him. It's kinda weird. Just sayin'.

Give it a week. I have my 3* BH set as Captain Marvel right now, just to get her closer to 223 so she can bestow upon me the Peggy that the Legendary tokens are apparently dead set against giving me (*grumble*) but once Hawkguy hits tokens at the start of next season, he'll be my sole BH until he gets 13'd.

Quebbster

The outrage would be... interesting if newly released characters weren't available in tokens because they weren't good enough. Besides, there's an alternate route to get Three-star covers in the DDQ, so it's not like the ones not in tokens are completely unavailable (though it's harder for new players to get them)

ejm04

Quebbster wrote:

The outrage would be... interesting if newly released characters weren't available in tokens because they weren't good enough. Besides, there's an alternate route to get Three-star covers in the DDQ, so it's not like the ones not in tokens are completely unavailable (though it's harder for new players to get them)

I'm suggesting a mixture. The 3* are a mix of new and popular/powerful.

4* should be the same. They could even expand from 12 characters to 16 or 20 to accommodate the stronger ones. With 43 (iirc) 4*s, they'd still be solving dilution, but the strongest argument against the system (not being able to keep up with the Joneses) largely vanishes, and in fact, catching up to the Joneses becomes possible.

Quebbster

ejm04 wrote:

Quebbster wrote:

The outrage would be... interesting if newly released characters weren't available in tokens because they weren't good enough. Besides, there's an alternate route to get Three-star covers in the DDQ, so it's not like the ones not in tokens are completely unavailable (though it's harder for new players to get them)

I'm suggesting a mixture. The 3* are a mix of new and popular/powerful.

4* should be the same. They could even expand from 12 characters to 16 or 20 to accommodate the stronger ones. With 43 (iirc) 4*s, they'd still be solving dilution, but the strongest argument against the system (not being able to keep up with the joneses) largely vanishes.

I could absolutely see them including the weekly boosted characters in the tokens too. This week it would mean four extra fourstars in the tokens, which sounds pretty manageable.

vinsensual

If you play enough, you're eventually going to want to roster and champ all the 3 star characters, for the LTs at first and the 4 star covers they give.

Skrofa

Some of the 3*s that were vaulted might be weaker and or unwanted by most of the players.

But!!

What about their 4* rewards? Whom do they feed? Are they available or vaulted? If the 3* feeder AND the 4* are both vaulted, what does this mean to the players?

There are issues with the 3* vaulting as well, and coming up with a solution that dilutes the pulls with 2* is not really the best. If only they would change the 2* champion rewards in a rotation as well, that would be welcome maybe.

whitecat31

I honestly thought this was an April fools post, because the majority of the players hate vaulting

Ayasugi-san

Eh...

It's true that the 3* vaulting was done better than the 4*, but I still don't think it's a net positive for 2->3 transitioners. DDQ gives guaranteed covers, but only if you have the 3* featured, and I got a bunch of the 3*s needed from random token pulls. Current transitioners will likely have to micromanage their favorited characters or risk missing out the DDQ cover until the next cycle or even later, and the vaulted heroes will always lag behind the ones in tokens.

TxMoose

ejm04 wrote:

The best tokened character will be out of them in about a week and it's mostly sadness remaining. Just pick the 4* they way you chose 3* and most of the complaints go away. It's absurd for people building their 4* roster to pull tokens and get nothing but second rate characters until the rng blesses them with a bonus hero.

yeah, you obviously don't have much experience with 4carol, medusa, wasp, etc. carol might be the second best 4 in the game and wasp is every bit of a high tier character as many of the original group. medusa needs the right teammates but she's very strong. haven't mentioned Coulson or blade - both solid, second tier level. gwenpool boosted green is nearly 30k for 10 green. I'm sure that's just awful. blade passive red boosted is as strong as bolt's passive, sure it needs some acceleration, but once you get there and things melt away....

sure modo is a stinker so far, but the group, even without peggy, is very strong.

ejm04

TxMoose wrote:

yeah, you obviously don't have much experience with 4carol, medusa, wasp, etc. carol might be the second best 4 in the game and wasp is every bit of a high tier character as many of the original group. medusa needs the right teammates but she's very strong. haven't mentioned Coulson or blade - both solid, second tier level. gwenpool boosted green is nearly 30k for 10 green. I'm sure that's just awful. blade passive red boosted is as strong as bolt's passive, sure it needs some acceleration, but once you get there and things melt away....

sure modo is a stinker so far, but the group, even without peggy, is very strong.

You're right. My 4* experience is quite limited, so I rely on what I can find on the forums to guide my expectations. Are they all terrible? No. However, based on character rankings, the tokened 4*s for the only up-to-date rankings post (with very little argument about the ranks in comments) come in at 2, 6, 14, 16, 18, 26, 28, 29, 35, 36, 41, 44. That's a decent spread, but you're missing 8 of the top 10 with a 9th (and best remaining) to head to the vault shortly. 15 of the top 20 aren't in tokens. The group, without Peggy, is a far cry behind what those with established rosters will be bringing to events.

PolarPopBear

I agree losing peggy is a big blow. However I feel the the 4* tier list either slightly undervalues some of the newest characters or doesn't covey the fact that the top 20-25 are actually pretty close in level of power, established players are going to keep using their old staples since they have more champion levels in them and are used to the play style. We saw this inertia as the 4* stable grew, HB/JG wasn't the best above all pair for as long as the usage rate would have you believe, but it took people time to build their other characters and then start using them. The only thing I feel is missing from the current vault is a strong aoe character ala iceman/rulk.

As someone who is transitioning 5* I do miss old tokens. Around 25 of my 4s are probably not going to give me a single extra champ level and juicy rewards. I do think people who are up in arms because X top tier character is out are missing the fact that Y terrible character is also not in the vault and the current pool is actually pretty good if you are getting started in 4 land.

Quebbster

ejm04 wrote:

TxMoose wrote:

yeah, you obviously don't have much experience with 4carol, medusa, wasp, etc. carol might be the second best 4 in the game and wasp is every bit of a high tier character as many of the original group. medusa needs the right teammates but she's very strong. haven't mentioned Coulson or blade - both solid, second tier level. gwenpool boosted green is nearly 30k for 10 green. I'm sure that's just awful. blade passive red boosted is as strong as bolt's passive, sure it needs some acceleration, but once you get there and things melt away....

sure modo is a stinker so far, but the group, even without peggy, is very strong.

You're right. My 4* experience is quite limited, so I rely on what I can find on the forums to guide my expectations. Are they all terrible? No. However, based on character rankings, the tokened 4*s for the only up-to-date rankings post (with very little argument about the ranks in comments) come in at 2, 6, 14, 16, 18, 26, 28, 29, 35, 36, 41, 44. That's a decent spread, but you're missing 8 of the top 10 with a 9th (and best remaining) to head to the vault shortly. 15 of the top 20 aren't in tokens. The group, without Peggy, is a far cry behind what those with established rosters will be bringing to events.

Character rankings tend to favor older characters as the general population haven't had the time to cover and playtest the newer characters. Take the rankings with a grain of salt.

TxMoose

also - take rankings by individuals with a grain of salt. unless you have all the characters and play with them (like colog for example), its really hard to slot the newest characters in the old rankings. rankings by individuals also come with their own bias. I fully think jarvind genuinely believes his ranks and he has his reasons based on his experiences, but wasp at 28 is completely ridiculous. I favored her way over medusa when they were boosted same week and chose her black over oml's the majority of the time. I think in a few months when more people get to play with the bunch, this group isn't as bad as people make them out to be. and - when the group had mk and kate too, it might have been the strongest group of 12 available. arguments can be made for the first meta-run of characters (basically hb to x23), but it had MFer, failcap, and carnage too. frankly I don't personally like the vaulting aspect of what they did, but as long as power creep continues and the groups stay solid, the new characters can be covered much more reasonably.