Reserved spot for future Dev team response to Baral nerfs

Gideon
Gideon Posts: 356 Mover and Shaker
edited March 2017 in MtGPQ General Discussion
Player base: Baral needs a nerf Baral needs a nerf! Baral needs a nerf!
Dev team: Is Baral broken ? All members shake they're head no. None of the 3 drop spells are good what's going on?Give it a couple weeks till we respond
Player base: Baral needs Nerf! Baral needs a nerf! Baral needs a nerf.
Dev team: It's been a couple weeks and they still want a nerf. Ok let's play test it and see what thebig deal is. Damn he's OP Broken but people paid money for it.What ever will we do?
Will the Dev team nerf Baral ? Will they increase his power? Will they be silent and do nothing? Will they continue designing the new set and introduce more bugs before fixing old ones?Find out on the next exciting episode of MTGPQ. Stay tuned it could be a while.
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Comments

  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Baral needs to be changed, but it should still be powerful so that the players dont feel like they have been robbed.

    We'd really like to know your thoughts on Baral @JC.
  • buscemi
    buscemi Posts: 673 Critical Contributor
    khurram wrote:
    Baral needs to be changed, but it should still be powerful so that the players dont feel like they have been robbed.

    We'll get over it. There are players who spent $99 on the Elite pack and got a Yahenni, for god's sake. I bet they still buy the next offer.
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    Just break the AI cycling and be done with it. Consider it a bug fix.

    For the record, I can cycle pump my Diregraf Colossus using G&G, PA, and Zombie tokens but no-one complains because the AI doesn't do it.
  • losdamianos
    losdamianos Posts: 429 Mover and Shaker
    Yes Yes Yes please nerf this premium card for which hundrends? of us paid $$$
  • buscemi
    buscemi Posts: 673 Critical Contributor
    losdamianos wrote:
    Yes Yes Yes please nerf this premium card for which hundrends? of us paid $$$

    Really, tho? This is not the end of power creep. We've not all bought the one card that will sit at the top of the curve forever and give us an unfair advantage in perpetuity. They'll come up with something even more broken to sell for AKH which gives players an unfair advantage against Baral decks, and and then another one for HOU which gives players an unfair advantage against decks that use THAT card, and so on and so on until the game breaks irrevocably.

    Do we really want to see that?
  • losdamianos
    losdamianos Posts: 429 Mover and Shaker
    Players pointed how broken this card is before it was even put on sale.
    D3 with its "extensive" testing decided to start charging for this OP card anyway.
    Game is pretty much broken at the moment, when I see baral I quit, in most cases I would loose that battle on the same turn anyway so what is the point...
    Saying all that nerfing baral will be a big slap in the face for anyone who purchased him. Anyone who wanted an easy win card for 69.99.
  • PastrySpider
    PastrySpider Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    I'm trying to rally people around the suggested change that he instead add 3 mana to each spell at the beginning of the turn. Still powerful, still allows the cheap cantrip strategy (just not endlessly in one turn) and opens him up to working with other strategies (slowing growing more powerful spells).
  • Diabeetus
    Diabeetus Posts: 34 Just Dropped In
    I bought him and still want him nerfed. Just gimme a MP card as compensation. icon_e_smile.gif
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    Diabeetus wrote:
    I bought him and still want him nerfed. Just gimme a MP card as compensation. icon_e_smile.gif

    Amen... not one of your Yaheeni ridden Elite packs.. I want a guaranteed MP... oh, and don't totally ruin Baral.. just make him so losdominoes doesn't quit every time he sees him.
  • killwind
    killwind Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    When an overpowered card in paper MTG happens how long does it take for Wizards to change or alter the card?

    I'm not sure if it's a generational thing or cultural thing but why are you expecting instant responses?
  • toastie
    toastie Posts: 119 Tile Toppler
    killwind wrote:
    When an overpowered card in paper MTG happens how long does it take for Wizards to change or alter the card?

    I'm not sure if it's a generational thing or cultural thing but why are you expecting instant responses?

    Depends, but they did just add in a new ban window so they could ban things faster.

    Also, if you look at what happened to standard during Kaladesh, people pretty much stopped playing entirely in tons of shops because of the problems with the format. That's the price you play for being inflexible with bans (or nerfs).
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    toastie wrote:
    killwind wrote:
    When an overpowered card in paper MTG happens how long does it take for Wizards to change or alter the card?

    I'm not sure if it's a generational thing or cultural thing but why are you expecting instant responses?

    Depends, but they did just add in a new ban window so they could ban things faster.

    Also, if you look at what happened to standard during Kaladesh, people pretty much stopped playing entirely in tons of shops because of the problems with the format. That's the price you play for being inflexible with bans (or nerfs).

    The difference is they take reasonable cards from paper magic and then bump them beyond reason in terms of power and break them in this game.

    Short list to compare from paper magic (I understand that certain mechanics must change for the format, but these are unreasonable)

    Olivia, Mobilized for War: 3/3 Flying. Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may discard a card. If you do that creature gets a +1/+1 counter, gains haste until the end of turn, and becomes a vampire in addition to its other types. Notice that she doesn't give flying or lifelink, and she doesn't buff herself on entry.

    Deploy the Gatewatch: Look at the top seven cards of your library. Put up to two planeswalker cards from among them onto the battlefield, but the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order. In this game this could easily be adjusted to look at the top seven cards and take two creatures.

    Decimator of the Provinces: 7/7 Trample, Haste. When you cast Decimator of the Provinces, creatures you control get +2/+2 and gain haste and trample until the end of turn. Notice that not only is he smaller, but he again doesn't buff himself and the buff only lasts till end of turn.

    Ulrich of the Krallenhorde: 4/4 When this creature enters the battlefield or transforms into Ulrich of the Krallenhorde, target creature gets +4/+4 until the end of turn. Again notice that the buff isn't permanent, but also that you can choose what creature gets it.
    Ulrich Uncontested Alpha: 6/6 Whenever this creature transforms into Ulrich Uncontested Alpha, you may have it fight target non-werewolf creature you don't control. Fight is basically they both deal damage to each other equal to their power, it's not him dealing direct damage as he does now without also taking damage, so giving him berserker till the end of turn would be more appropriate.

    Crush of Tentacles: Return all non-land permanents to their owner's hands. If Crush of Tentacles's surge cost was paid (if it was the second spell you cast that turn), put an 8/8 blue octopus creature token onto the battlefield. Notice that you only get one token, and nowhere does it state the token has reach.

    Tyrant of Valakut: 5/4 Flying. When Tyrant of Valakut enters the battlefield, if it's surge cost was paid (see above) it deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Important part here is only 3 damage and not to each creature and your opponent.

    Rattlechains: 2/1 Flying, flash. When Rattlechains enters the battlefield, target spirit gains hexproof until the end of turn. You may cast spirit spells as though they had flash. So I get that flash isn't a mechanic that translates well to this game, so giving spirits mana when you draw them, or maybe when your opponent makes a match would be plenty strong enough. Additionally hexproof should only last until your next turn. And, note the greatly diminished power and toughness.


    So after all that, look at paper Baral:
    1/3 instant and sorcery spells you cast cost 1 less to cast. Whenever a spell or ability you control counters a spell, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card.

    That first ability translates somewhat well to his ability now of giving spells you draw mana. However, nowhere does he state he draws you a card whenever you cast a spell. And you actually have to draw then discard. There are many options people have discussed to fixing it, as really the ability to draw whenever you cast a spell is what REALLY breaks him. I think he'd still be incredibly viable if he had the ability to draw you a card whenever you discard a card. There are a lot of cards from the Innistrad block this would play into, especially in black and red, but would still have good synergy with cards existing in blue already.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    wereotter wrote:
    [multiple reasonable translations]

    You're hired!
  • MightyKrakyn
    MightyKrakyn Posts: 64
    wereotter wrote:
    lots of good points.

    Just remember that decreased power and toughness are against an opponent that starts with 20 health.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    MightyKrakyn wrote:
    wereotter wrote:
    lots of good points.

    Just remember that decreased power and toughness are against an opponent that starts with 20 health.

    True though the Origins cards are largely at the same power and toughness at their paper counterparts and we had more than 20 life even when the game launched.
  • PastrySpider
    PastrySpider Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    As you said, Paper is a sufficiently different game that I don't think there is a ton of value in using paper versions as a basis for balancing. One thing to keep in mind though about all the translations is that in paper you have 20 life ~100 (5x increase). So the size of big creatures does need to be scaled. For example, Ulrich's temporary +4/+4, if you scaled it up according to Planeswalker health should be about +20/+20. Instead making temporary effects permanent I think is a reasonable translation.

    That's not to say these cards shouldn't be balanced, I just don't think their paper versions of evidence of that. Honestly, I think a mixture of buffs and nerfs would do he game a lot of good. More buffs for Origin's but still some nerfs (looking at you Hixus, you should be timered so you go away in X rounds).

    One place where paper versions are good reminders is in the color role separation (e.g., don't give green kill spells and don't give red lifelink). Sadly, x-color cards have messed with that pretty badly.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    PastrySpider wrote:
    As you said, Paper is a sufficiently different game that I don't think there is a ton of value in using paper versions as a basis for balancing. One thing to keep in mind though about all the translations is that in paper you have 20 life ~100 (5x increase). So the size of big creatures does need to be scaled. For example, Ulrich's temporary +4/+4, if you scaled it up according to Planeswalker health should be about +20/+20. Instead making temporary effects permanent I think is a reasonable translation.

    That's not to say these cards shouldn't be balanced, I just don't think their paper versions of evidence of that. Honestly, I think a mixture of buffs and nerfs would do he game a lot of good. More buffs for Origin's but still some nerfs (looking at you Hixus, you should be timered so you go away in X rounds).

    One place where paper versions are good reminders is in the color role separation (e.g., don't give green kill spells and don't give red lifelink). Sadly, x-color cards have messed with that pretty badly.

    Or they could just lower the health of these newer walkers to Origins levels and then go more solidly off paper cards. They don't need to be exact translations but it's another part of power creep. Also green gets kill spells from fight effects so giving them more berserker in Puzzle Quest makes sense.
  • Sorin81
    Sorin81 Posts: 558 Critical Contributor
    Check out this thread
    viewtopic.php?f=32&t=61718#p655764
    Actually got a response from a red name.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    That response was pretty laughable. It seems to imply that the looping is a result of a bug and not the card's design.
  • buscemi
    buscemi Posts: 673 Critical Contributor
    killwind wrote:
    When an overpowered card in paper MTG happens how long does it take for Wizards to change or alter the card?

    I'm not sure if it's a generational thing or cultural thing but why are you expecting instant responses?

    Memory Jar was banned in tournanents before a single tournament was ever run when it was legal.

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