Should We Continue to Expect This?

Punisher5784

My MoonKnight was 5/2/3 with 3 covers pending covers expiring in 4-days. There was no way of earning the 13th cover, except buying it for 120 CP. I was considering doing it as I had 80 CP and could earn enough in time but then I saw with great delight, my Rocket & Groot PVE Vault contained the much needed MoonKnight purple cover! The vault also had Antman Yellow (5/1/2) and StarLord (Champ level) so it looked appealing. Although my chances were slim by just using the earned tokens from the event so I took a chance by buying a 40pk. Not only did I not open a MK, I didn't even get a 4*.. from a 40pk.. that costs 9800 HP.. I was very angry but figured since the 40pk contained mostly 2*'s that my chances of pulling MK (or at least a 4*). With 1 day left in the event, I felt I had no choice but to buy a 10pk.. still NO MK or 4*.. for 2800 HP.. at that point I was furious and I bought another 10pk the next morning.. still no MK or 4*.. for 2800 HP. The event finished.. I used my sub-event token.. Legendary Token.. the one "4*" I did not want! At this point I could buy another 10pk for 2800HP to clear to freaking thing but I bought the Daily 100HP token.. MOONKNIGHT!! FINALLY!! Champed him.. am I happy? No

It took 70 tokens and cost me over 15,500 HP just for ONE COVER! ONE! (Not counting the unneeded, yet usable 2/3*'s). That is nearly a Stark salary for 1 cover. Would I had done this prior to Vaulting? No, because I eventually would had pulled him from a Legendary. Could I had waited for him to appear in Progression for PVE/PVP? Sure, but how long would that take? Would it even be Purple/Green? Should I had just spent the 120 CP to fully cover him? Yeah, this likely would had been the best solution for me. It sucks because I love MoonKnight in the comics and I like his abilities in the game but overall it was not worth it.. I don't think any character is worth 15,500HP for 1 cover.

The point of this post is not necessarily to complain about my bad luck, I want to point out if we should continue to expect the new standard Vaulting of older 4*'s. Are they expecting players to just empty vaults for a much needed 4*? Because this is a bad business model. I am so angry to the point, I am thinking about leaving this game (again). I understand the purpose of this current Vaulting system but it failed miserably and was very negative when they originally vaulted 3*'s 2-years ago so it's mind boggling they implemented this again with no alternative solution (outside of BH) for older 4*'s. I think BH's is a great idea.. but they never resolved the 6th cover issue so why would I select a character with a 5-cover ability for my BH? Why isn't there BH in Token Vaults? If there is no plan to include BH in Token Vaults then how about removing some 2*'s and add 1-3 more 4*'s of older 4* characters. 4* is the new 3*, it is time to realize this and stop being so stingy! I understand the devs are looking at alternative ways for us to obtain older 3/4*'s but I hope this post shows how flawed the current Vaulting system is.

What do you think? Is anyone else experiencing this? I cannot be the only one but feel free to poke fun and call me crazy.. I already know opening that many tokens was a huge mistake

cooperbigdaddy

I feel like what they WANT you to do is favorite MoonKnight and open a bunch of tokens and hope you get the right cover. And if you don't, to keep trying until you get the right cover and use the assumed 6th-9th cover of MoonKnight to champion. Confirmation bias, sure, but I SWEAR the odds of you getting a 6th+ cover of a character are astronomical.

But I COMPLETELY agree with you about the vaults! Way too many 2*s and I even feel 3*s. 90% of the time (number not proven) I pull a 2* from a vault. I feel you get between 1-10 vault tokens an event, depending on how you place in the subs. Because I don't have the HP to spare, I can't spend it on tokens, only on roster slots.

So I guess to guarantee a 4* from a vault, start hoarding vault tokens? Then once the event has come around 8-10 times, you can wait until it has a 4* you like and open it! That seems reasonable, right?

It's a little better for the taco vaults because you can get 3 a day so it'll only take 100 days to empty a vault. But there's still only 2 4*s. I mean, my taco vault hoarding is because of HP so I can eventually have enough to roster the characters I'm missing and go on a Classic Legends binge.

But then what? How do I get 4*s and 5*s any more? Just keep grinding until I get a few more tokens and pray to RNG that I pull a 4* or hope for some Bonus Heroes?

I hope I haven't steered the conversation from where you originated, Punisher. I just agree with you that getting 4* covers is way too hard a job.

DapperChewie

So a long time ago, back when 3s were still the endgame, and there were literally only 2 4*s, Psylocke had just come out. She is one of my favorite characters, and I wanted her covers more than anything.

Didn't have vaults back then, just higher odds for featured characters. So I dropped $50, got a 10 pack, and ended up getting one cover. Didn't really feel too satisfied with that, so I dropped another $50, and got two more. Back then, you could spend 1,250hp to get a 3* cover level, I could have gotten her almost fully covered for the HP I bought.

I wasn't too happy about it, and looking back I realize it was pretty stupid to drop $100 on what is now looked at as a low tier 3*, but I can't really take it back.

Anyways, the point is, the odds of getting one particular character from a vault are better than they used to be, but if you want to guarantee a year single cover from a Vault you need to be prepared to drop a days pay on it. That hasn't changed. And likely won't anytime soon. So yes, you should continue to expect this.

As an alternate lesson, if you want that cover now, it's going to be cheaper to spend available resources on it as opposed to counting on RNG.

smkspy

Vaults.need a serious reworking, but you absolutely feel into that gamblers mentality that vaulting preys upon now. That "I need to do whatever I can, spend however much I need to, just save a few champ levels for a character."

Even as I'm trying to build up the 200,000 iso I need to champ Peggy in the next nine days, I gotta keep telling myself that I'm just racing to save myself 2500 iso. Champ levels have turned us into lunatics.

chamber44

smkspy wrote:

Vaults.need a serious reworking, but you absolutely feel into that gamblers mentality that vaulting preys upon now. That "I need to do whatever I can, spend however much I need to, just save a few champ levels for a character."

Even as I'm trying to build up the 200,000 iso I need to champ Peggy in the next nine days, I gotta keep telling myself that I'm just racing to save myself 2500 iso. Champ levels have turned us into lunatics.

nah - that's the scarcity of 4* covers.

I have 8 champed 4's - Rulk, 4hor, 4Clops, XFDP, IMHB, Star-Lord, Kingpin, and Ant-Man. I like playing with all of them just fine (except KP, but when he's boosted - lawdy he's a monster), but those last three, especially the last two, aren't exactly top-tier. But I crammed and played so i wouldn't waste a cover -- since i had no idea when i'd get one again. It's just the artificial scarcity that the devs created. I'm actually doing ok on bonus characters, though i'm only using it to build my toons that do not have a x/5/x type situation, since it's a virtual guarantee that i'll get unusable covers (as my 5/4/3 and 5/0/0 Prof X's can attest)

bbigler

Always know the odds first before pulling. What's more valuable to you? 9800 HP or 120 CP? Spending CP is a guarantee, spending HP is still a gamble.

Straycat

I don't see how going back to the previous system makes your decision to buy out a vault any different. In terms of quickly getting specific covers, your best route is buying it. Same as before vaulting. You say you could have eventually pulled him from tokens, but before those covers expired? I agree the progress on old characters slowed to a crawl, basically pve/pvp progression or champ rewards, or of course, just get lucky. But if it was the old way, would you have expected a Moonknight in those 4 pulls for 80 cp?

I don't expect much to change. We made enough noise about how we don't like vaulting, but I am not sure if there's enough data to show if it good or bad. But they mentioned they are exploring options, and having more than two types of tokens makes sense to me.

Dalbok

I posted this in another thread but perhaps is more appropriate here. They should make bonus hero covers colorless or do something like the following (to be able to utilize the BH system in this scenario without worrying about 6th cover issues).

I think they should have the option of selecting a color as part of your favorite, so it could work like something as follows:

- When you marking a character as your favorite, it would set the color to Yellow, clicking it again would cycle through the cover colors with a color indicator in the middle of the yellow heart.
- If they wanted (and their algorithms were setup in such a way) they could even have a character marked for general selection provide a 5% chance and specific cover color could provide a reduced chance (like 3%-4%, so players would only want to do it when necessary).

Perhaps this could belay some concerns about the vaulted system, because this would provide a capability to build an un-vaulted character without the concern of collecting the same cover colors over and over.

acescracked

Have a happy 2nd retirement!

Fightmastermpq

Straycat wrote:

I don't see how going back to the previous system makes your decision to buy out a vault any different. In terms of quickly getting specific covers, your best route is buying it. Same as before vaulting. You say you could have eventually pulled him from tokens, but before those covers expired? I agree the progress on old characters slowed to a crawl, basically pve/pvp progression or champ rewards, or of course, just get lucky. But if it was the old way, would you have expected a Moonknight in those 4 pulls for 80 cp?

I don't expect much to change. We made enough noise about how we don't like vaulting, but I am not sure if there's enough data to show if it good or bad. But they mentioned they are exploring options, and having more than two types of tokens makes sense to me.

I was thinking this too. The option to whale a vault for that one elusive cover has always been there, and while characters have now fallen out of the rotation we also have bonus heroes to grant that one character that you have just always loved from the comics and feel like you have to have champed on your roster immediately.

Punisher5784

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Straycat wrote:

I don't see how going back to the previous system makes your decision to buy out a vault any different. In terms of quickly getting specific covers, your best route is buying it. Same as before vaulting. You say you could have eventually pulled him from tokens, but before those covers expired? I agree the progress on old characters slowed to a crawl, basically pve/pvp progression or champ rewards, or of course, just get lucky. But if it was the old way, would you have expected a Moonknight in those 4 pulls for 80 cp?

I don't expect much to change. We made enough noise about how we don't like vaulting, but I am not sure if there's enough data to show if it good or bad. But they mentioned they are exploring options, and having more than two types of tokens makes sense to me.

I was thinking this too. The option to whale a vault for that one elusive cover has always been there, and while characters have now fallen out of the rotation we also have bonus heroes to grant that one character that you have just always loved from the comics and feel like you have to have champed on your roster immediately.

The difference between the New Vaulting system and previously having access to all 4*'s is I would have just let those 2 covers expire because I'll eventually get MK and more covers for champ levels, but now it seems very important to ensure you champ characters before they are vaulted. Also, Champ levels are more important now than before because you won't earn as many champ levels for vaulted 4*'s as before. Yes I agree BH can help build older characters but as I've stated in numerous posts, unless they fix the 6th cover, then BH is useless to me with a character that has a 5-cover ability.

acescracked wrote:

Have a happy 2nd retirement!

I always look forward to your positive responses to player's posts!

GurlBYE

4's are still treated as too valuable at this point.

There's still not much else to say on the topic.

Vaults are to make people buy packs. Pre-vaulting, no one really advocated buying packs at all unless you were rich.

Vaulting is supposed to make you either
A- Hoard
B- Spend until you can physically see what you want is left, and then spend some more because the vault is for a limited time, unlike a pack.


Vaulting made the idea of "gotta buy it if i see it in a vault" more immediate a feeling because without favorites you may not even see that color when your character does pop up.

IN 42 PVE EVENTS.

which all range from 3 to 7 days long AND can be prolonged by the new characters that pop up every 2 weeks.

Eichen

Are they expecting players to just empty vaults for a much needed 4*?

This was always the intention of vaults. They are lottery advertisements. They are the billboard you pass on the highway that lets you know Powerball is at 141 million if you are the one lucky enough to win it.

I don't think the intent of vaulting "older characters" was an intent make you spend more HP. If anything the Limited Vaults we have been seeing for a few months now are their money grab. (which I have no problem with) I think the intent with vaulting is for everyone to focus on the "new characters" and champ them in a fraction of the time it would have taken you to champ a character before. All the other "old characters" are now side projects to grab when you can via lucky pulls, resupply, or rewards.

For the record my Moon Knight is 9/1/7 and I have 2 MK covers dying on the vine right now so I feel your pain. However, I know that if I am patient enough Sentry is going to get me a pink in 6 more covers (20+ covers thanks to bonus heroes) and that since MK is my only 4* bonus hero eventually that 3rd pink will fall they way they intended.

Fightmastermpq

Punisher5784 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Straycat wrote:

I don't see how going back to the previous system makes your decision to buy out a vault any different. In terms of quickly getting specific covers, your best route is buying it. Same as before vaulting. You say you could have eventually pulled him from tokens, but before those covers expired? I agree the progress on old characters slowed to a crawl, basically pve/pvp progression or champ rewards, or of course, just get lucky. But if it was the old way, would you have expected a Moonknight in those 4 pulls for 80 cp?

I don't expect much to change. We made enough noise about how we don't like vaulting, but I am not sure if there's enough data to show if it good or bad. But they mentioned they are exploring options, and having more than two types of tokens makes sense to me.

I was thinking this too. The option to whale a vault for that one elusive cover has always been there, and while characters have now fallen out of the rotation we also have bonus heroes to grant that one character that you have just always loved from the comics and feel like you have to have champed on your roster immediately.

The difference between the New Vaulting system and previously having access to all 4*'s is I would have just let those 2 covers expire because I'll eventually get MK and more covers for champ levels, but now it seems very important to ensure you champ characters before they are vaulted. Also, Champ levels are more important now than before because you won't earn as many champ levels for vaulted 4*'s as before. Yes I agree BH can help build older characters but as I've stated in numerous posts, unless they fix the 6th cover, then BH is useless to me with a character that has a 5-cover ability.

BH is no more useless than previous RNG that would just as likely award a 6th cover in a particular color.

I think you are reacting to an imaginary problem. Why is it important to champ characters before they are vaulted? Once they are vaulted you will hardly pull any covers for them anyway. Not earning as many champ levels as previously really makes them LESS important - because there is less danger of wasting 4* covers in the future.

Think about it. You feel like you need to champ him now because his covers won't come around very often, but also so that you can utilize his covers when they come around.....not very often. The very cause of your problem eliminates the need to solve it.

nyck1118

I dont see how any of this is relevant to your buyers remorse. You could have EASILY gotten 40 cp in a day/ 2 days max and saved yourself all of that HP. You're upset because your NEED to have it now gamble didn't pay off. well sucks to be you.

in the old system you would have had roughly a 5% chance to draw a MK now it HAD to be a specific color so now you have to calculate that 33% chance into your 5% so roughly a 1.8% chance to actually draw the color you needed. That's some pretty **** odds. I'd buy the cover i needed with CP. That's what I did if i NEEDED a cover before vaulting and that's what I would have done now. You gambled and you lost. it is not vaulting's vault you spent close to $100 dollars in resources on something you could bought with a day and halfs worth of CP

FokaiHI

I see it entirely opposite. I would just mark MK as my favorite and let it ride out. I have received multiple covers for Nova and Kate Bishop as bonus heroes.

The real problem is the iso I need to champ anything. I have 3 4*s at 13 covers with some about to expire and 60k in iso. I decided to keep my 2* farm running and not buy or open LTs instead.

It's great that you got MK though. He is as good as it gets.

Straycat

Yeah I have the 14th cover for 2 vaulted characters. I can sell them without worrying about wasted covers. I know it's just one cover sold until they come up again in progression or champ reward. Before I champed Venom and Elektra because I was worried I would keep pulling them, not just because I had a few in the queue.
It's more pressing to champ the current 12 than the vaulted characters, since you have more chance of champ levels or wasted covers. And it looks like vaulting might have helped you get Moonknight to 12 covers (5/2/3)? faster to give you this problem in the first place. Same thing happened for me with Kate Bishop. She was 2/2/5 and just an afterthought. When BH was introduced I got a bunch of Kates in a row, with some extra unusable. Now she's vaulted so I can wait to give her iso until she comes up as progression or something.

Alsmir

Technically it's just rng so don't worry.

On unrelated note, I'd like to mention, that in one game I have experienced a system (King of Towers) where the game shows you just a hint that you will draw one of the x (lets say 10) prizes, but in reality devs confirmed (which needed extra research on forums) that you actually have something like 80% chance for getting 3 worst rewards and maybe something like 0,2% for the best one.

MushroomGenius808

Had a similar problem around anniversary when one of my vaults had a green Iceman that I needed. Think I bought a couple of 10 packs along with 100hp daily tokens and all of the accumulated event tokens... never got that Iceman.

Spent 240cp in the last two weeks or so and finally got him fully covered.

I'm fine with spending the CP if it's a 4* i really wanted. I finished off HB, Peggy, and now Iceman doing this.

SnowcaTT

Dalbok wrote:

I posted this in another thread but perhaps is more appropriate here. They should make bonus hero covers colorless or do something like the following (to be able to utilize the BH system in this scenario without worrying about 6th cover issues).

Colorless covers FTW.

NO REASON that you need 113 covers...but the first thirteen HAVE to fall in a specific order. Ridiculous.

FaustianDeal

Your behavior in response to the vault is probably what they are looking for, so you should definitely expect more of it.

Remember when the guaranteed copy of the feature character was taken out of the 10/40 packs for events? Sales went up.
Player Analysis: I needed a copy of the character. I used to be able to buy one pack, but this time I had to by 3 packs to get one.
Publisher Analysis: Player must have liked those packs, they bought 3x as many of them!

You practically emptied that vault, that looks like winning to the person who filled it. To be honest, I'm surprised how many times a vault has a character I need, but the color is wrong. If you really want me going at that vault, put the color I need in it. I'll probably buy 0 tokens in a vault that is going to cough up an unusable cover as the reward.